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I know the shuttle is long gone but are we at the point where robotic repair could be an option. The Hubble might be out of date but that would be a great exerc

by xupybd 8y ago

I know the shuttle is long gone but are we at the point where robotic repair could be an option. The Hubble might be out of date but that would be a great exercise in developing repair tech.

ispiansclsda 8y ago
Not worth the cost.
melling 8y ago
Why is the Hubble out of date?
- hwillis 8y ago
  28 years in space is a long time, and the new JWST has a 5x larger collection area and is fundamentally capable of detecting a much larger spectrum (the mirrors are kept colder). The HST has cost more to keep operational than it did to build at this point, and its construction was not smooth. Money might be better spent elsewhere. However, there is a HUGE amount of data still to collect from space-based telescopes. Even a crippled HST is a desperately wanted resource. It benefits us to have as many space telescopes as we can right now.
  - mabbo 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, what costs so much in terms of operations?
    - moftz 8y ago
      There are a crew of engineers maintaining the satellite's position and operation while another team of scientists operate the telescope, review proposals, and schedule science time. Time also has to be scheduled for the TDRSS ground stations for data downloads. NASA is not the majority user of that system so there isn't a lot of time available. The data then needs to be adjusted and translated into something that can be given to scientists. There is an entire institute, the STScI, that manages missions for Hubble and will someday do the same for JWST and WFIRST. I'm sure there are at least a few dozen engineers and scientists that keep Hubble operational and busy. http://hubblesite.org/the_telescope/team_hubble/ http://hubblesite.org/the_telescope/team_hubble/
nervousvarun 8y ago
Could be wrong but my understanding is the issue preventing repair is the expense in getting to the Hubble. So whether it's via robot or human spacewalk (though a manned operation is even more expensive obviously) the issue is the prohibitive expense of getting to the Hubble to fix it.
- mabbo 8y ago
  Orbital apogee is only 540.9 km[0]. SpaceX launched a satellite to an orbit of 640km last night for what I presume was it's usual $60m launch price. So 'getting to the Hubble' is pretty low in price, all things considered. Now the hard part: building something that can fix the Hubble. Humans would be good at making repairs, but the SpaceX Dragon capsule doesn't have an airlock, so that won't work easily. Repairs might be doable by a robot, but I suspect the easier option would be to simply attach new parts to it to perform the broken functionality. If you can build the new piece for $40m, that's $100m to add another 20+ years to the lifespan of this incredible piece of equipment. Heck, sounds like something Bezos might do just for fun and as a test for his New Glenn rockets. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope
  - ethagknight 8y ago
    What about just building a new one to spec and launching that?
  - dlgeek 8y ago
    > Humans would be good at making repairs, but the SpaceX Dragon capsule doesn't have an airlock, so that won't work easily Can Dragon 2 do what most capsules do and just cycle the capsule interior into vacuum then open the door? (With everyone in suits first, obviously).
  - skykooler 8y ago
    > the SpaceX Dragon capsule doesn't have an airlock Neither did the Apollo moon landers, or the Gemini missions where NASA first tested spacewalks. Instead they just depressurized the whole cabin, making it into one big airlock. Presumably this would work for the Dragon as well.
gameswithgo 8y ago
I have no expertise in any area related to this, other than having watched humans do a repair, and talk about the repair, which leads me to believe while a robot repair would certainly be possible in theory, is probably beyond us for a quite a while. but, please, change my mind and fix it! =)
hwillis 8y ago
I don't know of anything with an appropriate form factor, unfortunately. You can't just do a normal rocket launch- you need to either develop an entire controlled vehicle to meet up with the Hubble (unless that exists already), or something that can exit a crew capsule. That's a surprisingly demanding task. I think you'd basically have to engineer something from scratch, which is a big ask. It would be really interesting though! Imagine if you just left the robot up there, plugged in and on standby- ready to activate and do some repairs as needed. We should have one on every major satellite. Give him a box of spares, plug the remote into a 12 year old hopped up on adderall, mute the mic and watch it go.
- lolive 8y ago
  And in 5 years, we would need to send a robot to fix the robot.
- aerostable_slug 8y ago
  You could use an X-37B to meet up with Hubble. However, figuring out budget (X-37B is a USAF asset, not a NASA vehicle), designing & constructing a robotic repair system that fits in the cargo bay, etc. would be nontrivial both in terms of price/ROI and the hopefully impending debut of the Webb telescope.
thescriptkiddie 8y ago
I think you're overestimating the capabilities of current robotics. The Hubble wasn't designed to be repaired by robots. Technically, it wasn't designed to be repaired at all. If a robot is going to do the job, it will need to at least match the dexterity of a human in a space suit, and be able to react quickly to unexpected circumstances. Neither teleoperation nor AI is there yet. Maybe in a few decades.

by xupybd 8y ago

I know the shuttle is long gone but are we at the point where robotic repair could be an option. The Hubble might be out of date but that would be a great exercise in developing repair tech.

ispiansclsda 8y ago

Not worth the cost.

melling 8y ago

Why is the Hubble out of date?

hwillis 8y ago
28 years in space is a long time, and the new JWST has a 5x larger collection area and is fundamentally capable of detecting a much larger spectrum (the mirrors are kept colder). The HST has cost more to keep operational than it did to build at this point, and its construction was not smooth. Money might be better spent elsewhere. However, there is a HUGE amount of data still to collect from space-based telescopes. Even a crippled HST is a desperately wanted resource. It benefits us to have as many space telescopes as we can right now.
- mabbo 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, what costs so much in terms of operations?
  - moftz 8y ago
    There are a crew of engineers maintaining the satellite's position and operation while another team of scientists operate the telescope, review proposals, and schedule science time. Time also has to be scheduled for the TDRSS ground stations for data downloads. NASA is not the majority user of that system so there isn't a lot of time available. The data then needs to be adjusted and translated into something that can be given to scientists. There is an entire institute, the STScI, that manages missions for Hubble and will someday do the same for JWST and WFIRST. I'm sure there are at least a few dozen engineers and scientists that keep Hubble operational and busy. http://hubblesite.org/the_telescope/team_hubble/ http://hubblesite.org/the_telescope/team_hubble/

nervousvarun 8y ago

Could be wrong but my understanding is the issue preventing repair is the expense in getting to the Hubble. So whether it's via robot or human spacewalk (though a manned operation is even more expensive obviously) the issue is the prohibitive expense of getting to the Hubble to fix it.

mabbo 8y ago
Orbital apogee is only 540.9 km[0]. SpaceX launched a satellite to an orbit of 640km last night for what I presume was it's usual $60m launch price. So 'getting to the Hubble' is pretty low in price, all things considered. Now the hard part: building something that can fix the Hubble. Humans would be good at making repairs, but the SpaceX Dragon capsule doesn't have an airlock, so that won't work easily. Repairs might be doable by a robot, but I suspect the easier option would be to simply attach new parts to it to perform the broken functionality. If you can build the new piece for $40m, that's $100m to add another 20+ years to the lifespan of this incredible piece of equipment. Heck, sounds like something Bezos might do just for fun and as a test for his New Glenn rockets. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope
- ethagknight 8y ago
  What about just building a new one to spec and launching that?
- dlgeek 8y ago
  > Humans would be good at making repairs, but the SpaceX Dragon capsule doesn't have an airlock, so that won't work easily Can Dragon 2 do what most capsules do and just cycle the capsule interior into vacuum then open the door? (With everyone in suits first, obviously).
- skykooler 8y ago
  > the SpaceX Dragon capsule doesn't have an airlock Neither did the Apollo moon landers, or the Gemini missions where NASA first tested spacewalks. Instead they just depressurized the whole cabin, making it into one big airlock. Presumably this would work for the Dragon as well.

gameswithgo 8y ago

I have no expertise in any area related to this, other than having watched humans do a repair, and talk about the repair, which leads me to believe while a robot repair would certainly be possible in theory, is probably beyond us for a quite a while. but, please, change my mind and fix it! =)

hwillis 8y ago

I don't know of anything with an appropriate form factor, unfortunately. You can't just do a normal rocket launch- you need to either develop an entire controlled vehicle to meet up with the Hubble (unless that exists already), or something that can exit a crew capsule. That's a surprisingly demanding task. I think you'd basically have to engineer something from scratch, which is a big ask. It would be really interesting though! Imagine if you just left the robot up there, plugged in and on standby- ready to activate and do some repairs as needed. We should have one on every major satellite. Give him a box of spares, plug the remote into a 12 year old hopped up on adderall, mute the mic and watch it go.

lolive 8y ago
And in 5 years, we would need to send a robot to fix the robot.
aerostable_slug 8y ago
You could use an X-37B to meet up with Hubble. However, figuring out budget (X-37B is a USAF asset, not a NASA vehicle), designing & constructing a robotic repair system that fits in the cargo bay, etc. would be nontrivial both in terms of price/ROI and the hopefully impending debut of the Webb telescope.

thescriptkiddie 8y ago

I think you're overestimating the capabilities of current robotics. The Hubble wasn't designed to be repaired by robots. Technically, it wasn't designed to be repaired at all. If a robot is going to do the job, it will need to at least match the dexterity of a human in a space suit, and be able to react quickly to unexpected circumstances. Neither teleoperation nor AI is there yet. Maybe in a few decades.