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Every person, tech or not, should evaluate what their work is contributing to and they should evaluate if they can ethically and morally accept what the company

by dotdi 8y ago

Every person, tech or not, should evaluate what their work is contributing to and they should evaluate if they can ethically and morally accept what the company is doing or standing for. In the end, I have to be able to look myself in the mirror and be accountable for my actions, even if that would mean to forego money, prestige, etc.

hef19898 8y ago
True that. What I learned is that the official mission, say save the climate, of a given company is not enough tu judge that. I know companies in the renewable energy sector that are doing some shady stuff, the only guy getting rich is the CEO/founder regardless of how many bancrupcies occur. And the employees trying to work in "good" industry are just taken advantage of by some rich guy.
jimktrains2 8y ago
> Every person, tech or not, should evaluate what their work is contributing to and they should evaluate if they can ethically and morally accept what the company is doing or standing for. > In the end, I have to be able to look myself in the mirror and be accountable for my actions, even if that would mean to forego money, prestige, etc. How would you like people to square this with providing for their families? No offense to coal miners or well operators, but I don't think they're willing to destitute their families over climate change -- what's a better world for their grandchildren if their children die starving in the miners arms? More to the point, I think the problem is "we as a society", not the individual. We're not willing to give slight inconveniences for massive increases in energy efficency. Look at how we design our cities and communities. People drive 2+ton vehicles upwards of 2 hours each day to go to work instead of living closer to the office and biking or taking public transport. (Many first and second ring suburbs of many/most/all cities have decent (or better) school systems than in the exurbs.) Do we really need to consume all of the plastic junk or waste nearly as much food as we do? Do we need to be so wasteful of energy in our homes? Do we need to keep stores and offices frozen in the dead of summer? There is a lot of really low hanging fruit (that people as a whole are unwilling to do because it's the slightest of inconvenience or expects them to acknowledge the world they live in), before we ask people to give up their jobs. Do you think coal miners, well operators, or big box retail associates wouldn't want a safer or more fulfilling job? We need to look at our excess consumption before pointing fingers at people for taking a job we find dirty (in the moral sense.)
- drb91 8y ago
  > How would you like people to square this with providing for their families? With a capable human brain, like we all have! Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right one—all people making decisions have been faced with this, including many people commonly considered evil. Computers are levers, and developers are the fulcrum. We have quite a bit of negotiation power. Finally, I think it’s naive to think that these systemic problems can be addressed with concerted individual effort, not by addressing the underlying problems. Maybe I have some sympathy for the coal miners after all.
  - jimktrains2 8y ago
    You're still begging the question. How does one choose between doing something supports a questionably moral company (and what isn't a company without any moral baggage?) and keeping your family fed and warm? > Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right [choice] I think this is telling: you believe there is a correct choice in all situations, from all points of view. I have no problems installing Google Analytics or AdWords on a site if my employer asks me to, but I personally run with ad blockers. The "right" decision in my case is to keep my family fed and warm because I don't think I can find a position at a company that doesn't do advertising or analytics and my own attempts to start my own companies have failed. I'm not willing to take the risk of long-term unemployment or to take a significantly lower paying job at a company that does the exact same thing (e.g. advertising). So please tell me why my decision is unequivocally wrong, especially in light of the ability of anyone to run an adblocker and that we adhere to all relevant regulations, e.g. GDPR. Additionally, please tell me where I (and everyone who doesn't like advertising) can find a living wage from a company that does not advertise or perform analytics (or do any other morally questionable activity).
    - drb91 8y ago
      The decisions we make in life, and our difficulty making them, defines us. I can’t help you define your morality here.
hinkley 8y ago
In general I like the goals and most of the techniques of agile, but what management gets out of it that I really don’t like is the ability to keep the engineers nearly permanently off balance. The constant tempo means the act of stopping to ask these questions has a real and highly visible cost. You essentially have to be a whistleblower to say no to things. It is, I believe, the ugly reason why management has become so enthusiastic about sprints.

by dotdi 8y ago

hef19898 8y ago

True that. What I learned is that the official mission, say save the climate, of a given company is not enough tu judge that. I know companies in the renewable energy sector that are doing some shady stuff, the only guy getting rich is the CEO/founder regardless of how many bancrupcies occur. And the employees trying to work in "good" industry are just taken advantage of by some rich guy.

jimktrains2 8y ago

> Every person, tech or not, should evaluate what their work is contributing to and they should evaluate if they can ethically and morally accept what the company is doing or standing for. > In the end, I have to be able to look myself in the mirror and be accountable for my actions, even if that would mean to forego money, prestige, etc. How would you like people to square this with providing for their families? No offense to coal miners or well operators, but I don't think they're willing to destitute their families over climate change -- what's a better world for their grandchildren if their children die starving in the miners arms? More to the point, I think the problem is "we as a society", not the individual. We're not willing to give slight inconveniences for massive increases in energy efficency. Look at how we design our cities and communities. People drive 2+ton vehicles upwards of 2 hours each day to go to work instead of living closer to the office and biking or taking public transport. (Many first and second ring suburbs of many/most/all cities have decent (or better) school systems than in the exurbs.) Do we really need to consume all of the plastic junk or waste nearly as much food as we do? Do we need to be so wasteful of energy in our homes? Do we need to keep stores and offices frozen in the dead of summer? There is a lot of really low hanging fruit (that people as a whole are unwilling to do because it's the slightest of inconvenience or expects them to acknowledge the world they live in), before we ask people to give up their jobs. Do you think coal miners, well operators, or big box retail associates wouldn't want a safer or more fulfilling job? We need to look at our excess consumption before pointing fingers at people for taking a job we find dirty (in the moral sense.)

drb91 8y ago
> How would you like people to square this with providing for their families? With a capable human brain, like we all have! Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right one—all people making decisions have been faced with this, including many people commonly considered evil. Computers are levers, and developers are the fulcrum. We have quite a bit of negotiation power. Finally, I think it’s naive to think that these systemic problems can be addressed with concerted individual effort, not by addressing the underlying problems. Maybe I have some sympathy for the coal miners after all.
- jimktrains2 8y ago
  You're still begging the question. How does one choose between doing something supports a questionably moral company (and what isn't a company without any moral baggage?) and keeping your family fed and warm? > Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right [choice] I think this is telling: you believe there is a correct choice in all situations, from all points of view. I have no problems installing Google Analytics or AdWords on a site if my employer asks me to, but I personally run with ad blockers. The "right" decision in my case is to keep my family fed and warm because I don't think I can find a position at a company that doesn't do advertising or analytics and my own attempts to start my own companies have failed. I'm not willing to take the risk of long-term unemployment or to take a significantly lower paying job at a company that does the exact same thing (e.g. advertising). So please tell me why my decision is unequivocally wrong, especially in light of the ability of anyone to run an adblocker and that we adhere to all relevant regulations, e.g. GDPR. Additionally, please tell me where I (and everyone who doesn't like advertising) can find a living wage from a company that does not advertise or perform analytics (or do any other morally questionable activity).
  - drb91 8y ago
    The decisions we make in life, and our difficulty making them, defines us. I can’t help you define your morality here.

hinkley 8y ago

In general I like the goals and most of the techniques of agile, but what management gets out of it that I really don’t like is the ability to keep the engineers nearly permanently off balance. The constant tempo means the act of stopping to ask these questions has a real and highly visible cost. You essentially have to be a whistleblower to say no to things. It is, I believe, the ugly reason why management has become so enthusiastic about sprints.