7 ms·

There are some smaller German cities like Göttingen which have - in my opinion - a high intellectual atmosphere because they are so called university-cities: lo

by Kovah 8y ago

There are some smaller German cities like Göttingen which have - in my opinion - a high intellectual atmosphere because they are so called university-cities: lot's of students and academics in a rather small city. And, in comparison with big cities like Berlin or Munich, the rents are much cheaper: from what I know you pay 2/3 to half of the price for the same amount of space. Example: a flat with 55-60 qm is about 600-900€ in Berlin, and about 400-600€ in Göttingen. Well.. and if you don't mind high rents: Berlin as the German Silicon Valley has tons of job offers for you, highly diverse and open-minded people and there would be no language barrier because so many people here speak English.

thenaturalist 8y ago
Berlin is to be taken with a grain of salt regarding intellectual stimulus though. It really depends on OP's area of interest. Effective Altruism is big, as are some research institutions (Charité, Max-Delbrück Centre & similar) and the topics surrounding this research, but if you're coming from outside the academic system, they are not that accessible. If intellectual stimulus is what you're after, it's like searching for gold nuggets in Berlin. Not comparable to places like London. Can't compare to smaller German university cities. Source: Living in Berlin for a couple of years.
sneak 8y ago
Berlin is nothing like Silicon Valley. It’s a great city but job offers there are 60-80% lower salaries compared to the US, which makes Berlin being marginally cheaper (but with higher taxes) not really worth it.
- thenaturalist 8y ago
  Says somebody apparently... living in Berlin? Calling Berlin "marginally" cheaper than the Valley is something I'd be highly sceptical of. Rents aside I've not been to many other places where food, shopping and leisure has been as cheap. Also, OP did not mention he wants to optimise his income?
  - michaelt 8y ago
    Calling Berlin "marginally" cheaper than the Valley is something I'd be highly sceptical of. Presumably sneak means "Costs of living are lower, but if you salary goes from $150,000 to €50,000 it's not clear you'll be left with higher discretionary income."
    - thenaturalist 8y ago
      Your salary will just not decrease so disproportionately in relative terms. € 50,000 was a starting salary I was offered for a business position straight out of university. Any software engineer, much more so people with experience will earn considerably more. As other's have pointed out, senior positions rather range from 70k - 90k depending on the position and experience.
      - sneak 8y ago
        Senior positions in the US in certain types of engineering can easily result in income in the 50-70k range.... per month.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  The complete elimination of auto expenses helps a lot. And frankly, it's hard to put a price on 6 weeks' _guaranteed_ vacation per year. And true, salaries are lower, but 60-80%?? Obviously headhunters and published ranges are to be taken with a grain of salt but a HH was trying to entice me with 90k in Berlin for data engineering a while ago and that, while not SV money, is better than "60-80% less"
  - dathinab 8y ago
    It's min. 4 Weeks (by law) + national/regional holidays, which differ based on region in Germany and might overlap with Saturday/Sunday if anyone is interested in it. It's still pretty nice.
    - fileeditview 8y ago
      With a higher education you won't find any job offer with less than 25 days of vacation, usually >= 28. In tech most companies offer 30 days. I've seen some offering 38..
  - balladeer 8y ago
    But that's almost everywhere in Europe - salaries being a lot lower than in US, right? PS. Based on my conversations with a friend who moved from Dallas to Amsterdam. He was in US just for ~3 years after completing his MS. He always wanted to work and live in EU for some years before returning home. He stayed in US for the loan.
    - CalRobert 8y ago
      Yes - I say this as someone who moved from California to Ireland. Student loans are nearly evil - not that I think being irresponsible with debt is good, but they currently turn in to a near-prison for far too many people. You could spend 100k on lottery tickets and have an easier time getting it discharged than 100k on student debt. Is your friend in Amsterdam or Dallas at the moment? I doubt you could find enough money to get me to live in Dallas (well, maybe 7 figures so I could tolerate it briefly and then retire) due to the fact that I quite like being able to commute by bike without dying.
- Kovah 8y ago
  You can't directly compare the salaries without taking the living cost into account. You get much higher salaries in the US, especially SV, but you also have to pay way more for living. Flats are way more expensive and don't forget stuff like healthcare and so on which is, imo, cheaper in Germany. 10-20% lower salaries is something I would accept but 60-80? Come on.
mapcars 8y ago
Not sure about English, during my 4-day stay I met many people who struggled with English.
tetrazine 8y ago
This is true. Lots of other mentions of Germany in this thread with good points. The downsides to Germany that Americans and Canadians (and to a lesser extent British) might perceive: - Constant store closures. Almost all Sundays and numerous holidays, almost all stores, including groceries, are closed. Don't forget to get milk or you have to trek to the central train station. - Very bad international food. Even in major German cities, the food (outside of German, Middle Eastern, and some European cuisine) is simply not on par with places like the Bay Area or London. - Less outwardness as a social norm. I am sure there will be debate over this. But I think many will agree it is hard to make friends with non-expats even when there is no or little language barrier, compared to many North American social contexts. - Lots of bureaucracy and dependency trees of ID and permits, even for simple things like getting a train pass. As a reference, it costs 1500-2000 EUR to get a driver's license in Germany (including mandatory training classes), much higher than in the US or Canada. Also, there is a refugee crisis choking the German immigration system and it may take much longer than normal to get immigration-related matters sorted out. - More public smoking, including on patios and inside bars and clubs. If you are sensitive to cigarette smoke don't plan to go to any nightclubs. - Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer. Some of this is generic to Europe, much of it less true in Berlin than elsewhere, and there are lots of positives to Germany that have been mentioned in this thread. Good luck!
- tralarpa 8y ago
  From all the things that are going wrong in Germany, this is the most bizarre compilation I have ever seen (except the food situation). Probably an indicator for how good life is in Germany in general :)
  - LeonidasXIV 8y ago
    The shop thing is true though, especially in Munich (all of Bavaria really) where stores close at 20:00. Especially when Saturday or Monday are holidays, the rush in shops is like it is the last days of civilization. Here in Denmark it is no problem to go shopping on Sunday at least until 22:00 at all and even past that it is possible. It is so much nicer to not have to specifically plan on when to go shopping.
dathinab 8y ago
Berlin only has high rents compared to Berlin a view years ago and some, uhm, small places ;)[1]. Compared to many European capital cities or at last other large cities in Germany Berlin rents are still quite ordinary or even cheap (through the 600-900€, for a 55-60m² are right in Madrid for example that would be more like 900-1500 and in Munich its 1500+). [1] not sure how to express this, I mean just because it's a "small" place it's nor any worse just a bit different.
CalRobert 8y ago
How would Berlin compare to a town like Leipzig? Seems like Berlin is getting comparatively expensive.
- Reimersholme 8y ago
  Leipzig is way cheaper. I hear people comparing Leipzig to Berlin as of ten years ago or so when it comes to cost.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    And 10 years from now we'll be talking about.. I dunno, Offenburg? Within Germany places like Leipzig and Tubingen seem very appealing (though I quite fancied a 600 year old house in Rothenburg Ob der Tauber - car free towns are lovely)
- Kovah 8y ago
  Absolutely. Berlin is one of the more expensive cities in Germany. I can't speak for Leipzig because I don't know about the "intellectual atmosphere" OP is talking about. Just know that Göttingen is a good example because I have a friend that lives there.
cknight 8y ago
One of the good things about Göttingen in particular is that it maintains the same (or similar) intellectual atmosphere at not only a lower cost than the bigger German cities, but also lower than some of the other similarly-sized university towns such as Heidelberg. Moving from Göttingen to Heidelberg was an easy €200 per month rent increase for similar accommodation. The latter is certainly more scenic, but you pay for that with tourists, noise, etc. Having said all that, there are plenty more university towns to choose from - but I've only lived in those two specifically myself. In both, the low cost of living is assisted by being able to walk or cycle everywhere around them, negating the need to own a vehicle. I only spent money on public transport if the weather was particularly bad, or when traveling long distance/with luggage.
baxtr 8y ago
True. Another great example: Heidelberg.
JepZ 8y ago
> [...] no language barrier because so many people here speak English. I wonder how you came up with that one. From my experience (I am German myself), Germans are not good at English. It is not so bad within the large cities but in the countryside, good luck. Just take any of the Scandinavian countries and you will find that they have a higher percentage of people speaking English. Living in Germany without learning German is a hard challenge. However, speaking German with an American accent is sometimes considered cool ;-)
- Kovah 8y ago
  The "no language barrier" point was only for Berlin. I know that in the countryside almost nobody speaks English, but inside the city you will be able to get everything you need. As far as I know most of the government agency employees are required to speak at least basic English.
hypercluster 8y ago
As much as I liked studying there, it's not a good place to actually work as a software engineer (locally that is).

by Kovah 8y ago

thenaturalist 8y ago

Berlin is to be taken with a grain of salt regarding intellectual stimulus though. It really depends on OP's area of interest. Effective Altruism is big, as are some research institutions (Charité, Max-Delbrück Centre & similar) and the topics surrounding this research, but if you're coming from outside the academic system, they are not that accessible. If intellectual stimulus is what you're after, it's like searching for gold nuggets in Berlin. Not comparable to places like London. Can't compare to smaller German university cities. Source: Living in Berlin for a couple of years.

sneak 8y ago

Berlin is nothing like Silicon Valley. It’s a great city but job offers there are 60-80% lower salaries compared to the US, which makes Berlin being marginally cheaper (but with higher taxes) not really worth it.

thenaturalist 8y ago
Says somebody apparently... living in Berlin? Calling Berlin "marginally" cheaper than the Valley is something I'd be highly sceptical of. Rents aside I've not been to many other places where food, shopping and leisure has been as cheap. Also, OP did not mention he wants to optimise his income?
- michaelt 8y ago
  Calling Berlin "marginally" cheaper than the Valley is something I'd be highly sceptical of. Presumably sneak means "Costs of living are lower, but if you salary goes from $150,000 to €50,000 it's not clear you'll be left with higher discretionary income."
  - thenaturalist 8y ago
    Your salary will just not decrease so disproportionately in relative terms. € 50,000 was a starting salary I was offered for a business position straight out of university. Any software engineer, much more so people with experience will earn considerably more. As other's have pointed out, senior positions rather range from 70k - 90k depending on the position and experience.
    - sneak 8y ago
      Senior positions in the US in certain types of engineering can easily result in income in the 50-70k range.... per month.
CalRobert 8y ago
The complete elimination of auto expenses helps a lot. And frankly, it's hard to put a price on 6 weeks' _guaranteed_ vacation per year. And true, salaries are lower, but 60-80%?? Obviously headhunters and published ranges are to be taken with a grain of salt but a HH was trying to entice me with 90k in Berlin for data engineering a while ago and that, while not SV money, is better than "60-80% less"
- dathinab 8y ago
  It's min. 4 Weeks (by law) + national/regional holidays, which differ based on region in Germany and might overlap with Saturday/Sunday if anyone is interested in it. It's still pretty nice.
  - fileeditview 8y ago
    With a higher education you won't find any job offer with less than 25 days of vacation, usually >= 28. In tech most companies offer 30 days. I've seen some offering 38..
- balladeer 8y ago
  But that's almost everywhere in Europe - salaries being a lot lower than in US, right? PS. Based on my conversations with a friend who moved from Dallas to Amsterdam. He was in US just for ~3 years after completing his MS. He always wanted to work and live in EU for some years before returning home. He stayed in US for the loan.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    Yes - I say this as someone who moved from California to Ireland. Student loans are nearly evil - not that I think being irresponsible with debt is good, but they currently turn in to a near-prison for far too many people. You could spend 100k on lottery tickets and have an easier time getting it discharged than 100k on student debt. Is your friend in Amsterdam or Dallas at the moment? I doubt you could find enough money to get me to live in Dallas (well, maybe 7 figures so I could tolerate it briefly and then retire) due to the fact that I quite like being able to commute by bike without dying.
Kovah 8y ago
You can't directly compare the salaries without taking the living cost into account. You get much higher salaries in the US, especially SV, but you also have to pay way more for living. Flats are way more expensive and don't forget stuff like healthcare and so on which is, imo, cheaper in Germany. 10-20% lower salaries is something I would accept but 60-80? Come on.

mapcars 8y ago

Not sure about English, during my 4-day stay I met many people who struggled with English.

tetrazine 8y ago

This is true. Lots of other mentions of Germany in this thread with good points. The downsides to Germany that Americans and Canadians (and to a lesser extent British) might perceive: - Constant store closures. Almost all Sundays and numerous holidays, almost all stores, including groceries, are closed. Don't forget to get milk or you have to trek to the central train station. - Very bad international food. Even in major German cities, the food (outside of German, Middle Eastern, and some European cuisine) is simply not on par with places like the Bay Area or London. - Less outwardness as a social norm. I am sure there will be debate over this. But I think many will agree it is hard to make friends with non-expats even when there is no or little language barrier, compared to many North American social contexts. - Lots of bureaucracy and dependency trees of ID and permits, even for simple things like getting a train pass. As a reference, it costs 1500-2000 EUR to get a driver's license in Germany (including mandatory training classes), much higher than in the US or Canada. Also, there is a refugee crisis choking the German immigration system and it may take much longer than normal to get immigration-related matters sorted out. - More public smoking, including on patios and inside bars and clubs. If you are sensitive to cigarette smoke don't plan to go to any nightclubs. - Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer. Some of this is generic to Europe, much of it less true in Berlin than elsewhere, and there are lots of positives to Germany that have been mentioned in this thread. Good luck!

tralarpa 8y ago
From all the things that are going wrong in Germany, this is the most bizarre compilation I have ever seen (except the food situation). Probably an indicator for how good life is in Germany in general :)
- LeonidasXIV 8y ago
  The shop thing is true though, especially in Munich (all of Bavaria really) where stores close at 20:00. Especially when Saturday or Monday are holidays, the rush in shops is like it is the last days of civilization. Here in Denmark it is no problem to go shopping on Sunday at least until 22:00 at all and even past that it is possible. It is so much nicer to not have to specifically plan on when to go shopping.

dathinab 8y ago

Berlin only has high rents compared to Berlin a view years ago and some, uhm, small places ;)[1]. Compared to many European capital cities or at last other large cities in Germany Berlin rents are still quite ordinary or even cheap (through the 600-900€, for a 55-60m² are right in Madrid for example that would be more like 900-1500 and in Munich its 1500+). [1] not sure how to express this, I mean just because it's a "small" place it's nor any worse just a bit different.

CalRobert 8y ago

How would Berlin compare to a town like Leipzig? Seems like Berlin is getting comparatively expensive.

Reimersholme 8y ago
Leipzig is way cheaper. I hear people comparing Leipzig to Berlin as of ten years ago or so when it comes to cost.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  And 10 years from now we'll be talking about.. I dunno, Offenburg? Within Germany places like Leipzig and Tubingen seem very appealing (though I quite fancied a 600 year old house in Rothenburg Ob der Tauber - car free towns are lovely)
Kovah 8y ago
Absolutely. Berlin is one of the more expensive cities in Germany. I can't speak for Leipzig because I don't know about the "intellectual atmosphere" OP is talking about. Just know that Göttingen is a good example because I have a friend that lives there.

cknight 8y ago

One of the good things about Göttingen in particular is that it maintains the same (or similar) intellectual atmosphere at not only a lower cost than the bigger German cities, but also lower than some of the other similarly-sized university towns such as Heidelberg. Moving from Göttingen to Heidelberg was an easy €200 per month rent increase for similar accommodation. The latter is certainly more scenic, but you pay for that with tourists, noise, etc. Having said all that, there are plenty more university towns to choose from - but I've only lived in those two specifically myself. In both, the low cost of living is assisted by being able to walk or cycle everywhere around them, negating the need to own a vehicle. I only spent money on public transport if the weather was particularly bad, or when traveling long distance/with luggage.

baxtr 8y ago

True. Another great example: Heidelberg.

JepZ 8y ago

> [...] no language barrier because so many people here speak English. I wonder how you came up with that one. From my experience (I am German myself), Germans are not good at English. It is not so bad within the large cities but in the countryside, good luck. Just take any of the Scandinavian countries and you will find that they have a higher percentage of people speaking English. Living in Germany without learning German is a hard challenge. However, speaking German with an American accent is sometimes considered cool ;-)

Kovah 8y ago
The "no language barrier" point was only for Berlin. I know that in the countryside almost nobody speaks English, but inside the city you will be able to get everything you need. As far as I know most of the government agency employees are required to speak at least basic English.

hypercluster 8y ago

As much as I liked studying there, it's not a good place to actually work as a software engineer (locally that is).