10 ms·

That cold-cheap bit is decidedly not applicable to Europe, by the way. Scandinavia is overall among the most expensive places in Europe. I'd imagine Switzerland

That cold-cheap bit is decidedly not applicable to Europe, by the way. Scandinavia is overall among the most expensive places in Europe. I'd imagine Switzerland is more expensive by a bit, but Oslo and Stockholm are brutal as well.

fastbeef 8y ago
The cost of housing / income ratio in Stockholm is so out of whack that it’s basically impossible to enter the housing market without at least €50k-75k in savings to have as a down payment for an apartment anywhere nice.
- stefanfisk 8y ago
  And in addition to this renting is basically kafkaesque. You might be able to sublet a place for up to a year, but the rents are equally horrible compared to the average income. Getting a first hand contract is essentially impossible unless you know a private landlord who will give you preferential treatment, as generally the is a queue in which you need AT LEAST 10+ years to get something not nice at all
- dvlsg 8y ago
  Thats disappointing. After visiting, I found I really enjoyed both Sweden and Norway, and wouldn't mind moving there someday. Sounds like that may be difficult.
  - mclightning 8y ago
    Who wants to live in Stockholm anyway? Malmö is much better connected to Europe. You can basically drive to Germany, You can fly anywhere from Copenhagen which is 20 minutes train ride away from Malmö. Copenhagen airport has a lot more flights than Stockholm. That said, you get advantage of being right next to Copenhagen. It is a big market of jobs there. Salaries are high because it is a big, crowded city with high living expenses. So you could live in Malmö for cheap and commute to Copenhagen for work. All that said, as a 26 year old, I managed to take a gap year in Malmö now, after working/saving for 4 years, while managing to keep paying my mortgage, owning a car etc.
    - ptr 8y ago
      The job market for tech in Stockholm is larger than Copenhagen + Malmö combined.
      - jpkeisala 8y ago
        Is it really? I imaged Copenhagen being capital of tech and pharma in Nordics. Am I wrong?
  - dagw 8y ago
    Norway's rental market is nothing like Sweden's. In Norway rents may be higher but it's trivial to get a nice apartment in the center of town basically immediately.
    - dvlsg 8y ago
      That's reassuring. If I had to pick between the two (assuming I had a choice), I would pick Norway. How's the job market for developers?
      - dagw 8y ago
        Honestly I haven't checked for a few years (currently living in Sweden), but last time I checked most programming jobs where working for engineering (mainly connected to the oil industry) or finance companies as opposed to more pure software companies. Not that this has to be a bad thing in any way. That being said I gather from friends in Norway that the startup scene is slowly growing even there and there are more and more small software companies looking to hire.
- chrisper 8y ago
  It's the same in Switzerland. There is just almost no way to be able to afford a house (or just an apartment), because most of them start at 1 million and I am not even talking about apartments in Zurich.
namdnay 8y ago
I think it is applicable to Europe, but in a different way: Scandinavia and Switzerland are expensive, but salaries are equally high. Compare that to the French Riviera for example, where house prices are nearly as high as Stockholm, but salaries are much lower. That's the problem with sunshine: it attracts a lot of wealthy retirees and tourists, who distort the local market.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  Ha! No they aren't! I lived in Sweden for seven years, and this is so far from the truth it's hilarious. Relative quality of life is garbage in Sweden for a tech worker. Your life will be not that much better than if you work in Carlings selling plaid shirts to hard-rock hipsters. My Swedish friends have decent jobs and still live unglamorous, frugal lives. As soon as I left Sweden, my quality of life completely transformed for the better.
  - namdnay 8y ago
    I think it's all relative... I have two colleagues who moved from our offices on the Riviera to our offices in Stockholm, and they gained about 15% take-home salary each, with cheaper rents and public transport. I really don't think anyone's life in Sweden is garbage, as long as you can stand the winters
    - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
      My anecdata says otherwise. I still work for a Swedish company and visit frequently. I still know many tech workers who's lives are miserable, quite frankly. If you go to live and work in Sweden, where will you actually stay? You can't rent an apartment — the waiting list is around 16 years for a decent apartment in the city. It's even several years wait to rent an apartment in the ghetto. How did your colleagues find apartments? If they didn't buy places or have apartments provided through their employer, I'm guessing they're sub-letting through Blocket.
      - 8y ago
atilaneves 8y ago
Switzerland isn't that cold. The weather in Geneva is basically identical to Paris.

fastbeef 8y ago

The cost of housing / income ratio in Stockholm is so out of whack that it’s basically impossible to enter the housing market without at least €50k-75k in savings to have as a down payment for an apartment anywhere nice.

stefanfisk 8y ago
And in addition to this renting is basically kafkaesque. You might be able to sublet a place for up to a year, but the rents are equally horrible compared to the average income. Getting a first hand contract is essentially impossible unless you know a private landlord who will give you preferential treatment, as generally the is a queue in which you need AT LEAST 10+ years to get something not nice at all
dvlsg 8y ago
Thats disappointing. After visiting, I found I really enjoyed both Sweden and Norway, and wouldn't mind moving there someday. Sounds like that may be difficult.
- mclightning 8y ago
  Who wants to live in Stockholm anyway? Malmö is much better connected to Europe. You can basically drive to Germany, You can fly anywhere from Copenhagen which is 20 minutes train ride away from Malmö. Copenhagen airport has a lot more flights than Stockholm. That said, you get advantage of being right next to Copenhagen. It is a big market of jobs there. Salaries are high because it is a big, crowded city with high living expenses. So you could live in Malmö for cheap and commute to Copenhagen for work. All that said, as a 26 year old, I managed to take a gap year in Malmö now, after working/saving for 4 years, while managing to keep paying my mortgage, owning a car etc.
  - ptr 8y ago
    The job market for tech in Stockholm is larger than Copenhagen + Malmö combined.
    - jpkeisala 8y ago
      Is it really? I imaged Copenhagen being capital of tech and pharma in Nordics. Am I wrong?
- dagw 8y ago
  Norway's rental market is nothing like Sweden's. In Norway rents may be higher but it's trivial to get a nice apartment in the center of town basically immediately.
  - dvlsg 8y ago
    That's reassuring. If I had to pick between the two (assuming I had a choice), I would pick Norway. How's the job market for developers?
    - dagw 8y ago
      Honestly I haven't checked for a few years (currently living in Sweden), but last time I checked most programming jobs where working for engineering (mainly connected to the oil industry) or finance companies as opposed to more pure software companies. Not that this has to be a bad thing in any way. That being said I gather from friends in Norway that the startup scene is slowly growing even there and there are more and more small software companies looking to hire.
chrisper 8y ago
It's the same in Switzerland. There is just almost no way to be able to afford a house (or just an apartment), because most of them start at 1 million and I am not even talking about apartments in Zurich.

namdnay 8y ago

I think it is applicable to Europe, but in a different way: Scandinavia and Switzerland are expensive, but salaries are equally high. Compare that to the French Riviera for example, where house prices are nearly as high as Stockholm, but salaries are much lower. That's the problem with sunshine: it attracts a lot of wealthy retirees and tourists, who distort the local market.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
Ha! No they aren't! I lived in Sweden for seven years, and this is so far from the truth it's hilarious. Relative quality of life is garbage in Sweden for a tech worker. Your life will be not that much better than if you work in Carlings selling plaid shirts to hard-rock hipsters. My Swedish friends have decent jobs and still live unglamorous, frugal lives. As soon as I left Sweden, my quality of life completely transformed for the better.
- namdnay 8y ago
  I think it's all relative... I have two colleagues who moved from our offices on the Riviera to our offices in Stockholm, and they gained about 15% take-home salary each, with cheaper rents and public transport. I really don't think anyone's life in Sweden is garbage, as long as you can stand the winters
  - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
    My anecdata says otherwise. I still work for a Swedish company and visit frequently. I still know many tech workers who's lives are miserable, quite frankly. If you go to live and work in Sweden, where will you actually stay? You can't rent an apartment — the waiting list is around 16 years for a decent apartment in the city. It's even several years wait to rent an apartment in the ghetto. How did your colleagues find apartments? If they didn't buy places or have apartments provided through their employer, I'm guessing they're sub-letting through Blocket.
    - 8y ago

atilaneves 8y ago

Switzerland isn't that cold. The weather in Geneva is basically identical to Paris.