9 ms·

How to game the U.S. higher-education system

31 points by wallflower 16y ago

Muzza 16y ago
"In most careers, a Master's degree is required". Really?
- TGJ 16y ago
  That's what I've heard from my professors. Bachelor level gets you working in the lower levels with the possibility to move up fairly small. Masters get working making more money and are the ones considered for promotions over any others barring PhDs.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - Muzza 16y ago
    But... The professoriat generally knows very little about industry and also have a built-in bias to pushing people towards more education.
devmonk 16y ago
Great post. "Grad schools is shorter." Author may want to fix the grammar here.
dxq 16y ago
I don't really see anything in the article that I would call "gaming" the higher-education system. Maybe you could argue that the concept of going to a cheaper school for undergrad and attending a prestigious grad school is gaming the system, but that's not exactly a secret. Achieve straight A's in high school, do well on standardized tests, suck up to professors, study absurd amounts... This is more a guide of how to fall victim to the higher-education system.
bobf 16y ago
I used a similar idea for my YC application answer to the non-computer hack question. Basically, I hacked the traditional education experience and graduated in 2.5 years, with ~$8500 of loans (without any scholarships/reduced tuition), and with lots of great work experience (I worked full time during school). Although I wouldn't advise this route for everyone, it worked out extremely well for me. Here are a few tips towards hacking the undergraduate experience: 1) As the author says, attend a high quality, low cost state school. If you're going to get a masters, undergrad institution doesn't matter beyond being able to get you into the masters program of your choosing. If you aren't going to get a masters, I would wager it doesn't truly matter what undergrad school you choose. 2) Determine your major before your first semester begins. 3) Plan your courses out meticulously, and don't take courses you don't need to. 4) Take as many classes online as you can. 5) Many professors lectures are fairly useless as they just regurgitate their powerpoint slides. Use this to your advantage -- do homework, work on your online classes, do freelance/telecommuting work. 6) Use a service like RateMyProfessors to find sensible professors - there are huge variances in amount of homework, number of tests, etc. between professors for the same course. 7) Night classes are generally easier and have less homework, because they are designed for non-traditional students with full time jobs during the day. 8) Take as many credits per semester as possible - for most majors, 15 is pretty easy for smart/dedicated people, even with working a part/full-time job. I took 24 my last semester, while working full time. It was basically hell, but you can do anything for 3-4 months of your life. (I probably wouldn't have done that, except an older guy I worked with said he had done 24 in his last semester of his masters program, working full time, and with a pregnant wife.) 9) Go year round, but take less classes in summer and get great internships/work more. 10) Books: a) Make sure you need to buy the book. Lots of classes don't really require buying the book. b) Make sure you really need the most recent edition, 95%+ of the time, the last edition or two editions ago was fine for me. c) If you have to buy a book, get used on Amazon marketplace, half.com, etc. and resell them there after the class is over. 11) Get a job. This will help pay bills and reduce the amount of debt you take. Ideally, get one which will benefit your career path and allows you to work on homework. (I was a systems administrator in a generally not very busy swing shift - among other jobs.) 12) Change jobs as often as you can find something that looks better on your resume or pays more. Every job I took paid $10k+ more than the previous, except when I took a pay cut to do a summer internship at Goldman Sachs ($50k to $40k).
tiber 16y ago
Wow 2009 called and wanted your shitty irrelevant website back.
- mquander 16y ago
  user: tiber created: 23 days ago karma: 1 about: Former K5er, /.er, digger Too bad you didn't put your phone number in there, or I'd give you a call and ask for advice about how I can stay on the cutting edge of the Internet like you.
  - jedberg 16y ago
    At least he didn't taint the reddit name too. :)
mayank 16y ago
From TFA: > that's why profs shy away from foreign students: they can't contribute to discussions. In a field like computer science, or indeed any engineering, I haven't known a single professor to "shy away" from foreign students. To put it bluntly, they wouldn't have much choice if they did. The author prefaces his comment with "I don't mean to be a bigot", but unfortunately, just saying that doesn't mean what you say isn't bigotry. Lumping all "foreign students" into the same category sounds pretty bigoted to me. And I speak as a foreign student who is perfectly able to "contribute to discussions". FFS, "foreign" != "can't speak English"
- gaius 16y ago
  Most technical terms are English regardless of the language. When I was an undergrad we had a bunch of Greeks on my course, and when talking amongst themselves it sounded like malaga malaga second differential malaga malaga surface area... You could understand them perfectly. (malaga IIRC translates as "loser", the Greeks insult each other a lot).
  - xilun0 16y ago
    I'm not sure you can generalise: for example Math can be done 100% in French (and is usually taught like that in France, at least up to the undergraduate level). I've no doubt in other languages too. Computer science is a little harder, but also doable. But I would say most people deeply engaged in the field of computer science also know the English terms regardless of their mother tongue.
krschultz 16y ago
"Here's what I view to be the optimal path: Go to a cheap (but flagship) state school (e.g., Penn State), enroll in the Honors program (due to great high school grades), pay virtually nothing, and then (marginally) get into an incredible Master's program at a school like Princeton; " What? Penn State for non-residents is $35-40k. I agree with his sentiment but Penn State is not a cheap school unless you live in PA, it is another example of a marquee program that is almost as expensive than a private school. (Actually it is more expensive than some very good private schools). Better advice is to go to the best state school in your own state, then go to the graduate program that is excellent in your field (which may or may not be Ivy).
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  I figured that the example given was a generic case, for people living in PA.
- InclinedPlane 16y ago
  "flagship state school". He means your state, "Penn State" was just an example.
krschultz 16y ago
He completely misses that graduate programs are known for their specialization. " 3.Grad school is more important. Particularly, whether you're moving up or down: consider (a) undergrad at Penn State, grad at Harvard, vs. (b) undergrad at Harvard, grad at Penn State. Option (a) is universally considered better, and costs much less." Not exactly. Harvard is nowhere near the top of the mechanical engineering graduate program list. I'd be better off at the University of Illinois than Harvard if that is what I am doing. More importantly, what the hell do you want to do in your major? Some schools are great at fuel cells but not robotics. Some schools are great at AI and computer vision but not other CS disciplines. That is what you need to know.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  I think people are focusing too much on examples he gives, assuming he's recommending those specific schools to everyone, no matter what their actual interest is.
jdrock 16y ago
So.. gaming the system equates to studying well and working hard? That's.. not what's usually meant by "gaming"..
- jerf 16y ago
  "Congrats: you're a Princeton grad. For $60K. You gamed the system: you got the pedigree for just one years' tuition, at a school you probably couldn't have been admission to for undergrad." Emphasis mine.
linhir 16y ago
I just want to note, as Brown grad (he specifically points to Brown rather randomly), that unless your parents are "rich" but won't give you any money, you will never have 100k in debt from Brown or any "elite" school. That's just not how it works. Now I'm not saying you don't leave with debt--most of my friends have 20k or so in debt. I have about 9k, but that not the radically high number that is being quoting. The only person I know who has a huge amount of debt is from a family who has the money to pay full tuition (retirement funds, home equity, savings, etc) but would not pay a dime for their child's education. Now, maybe that's their right, but that friend (and former roommate) is the only person I know who graduated with such serious debt that they'd go to San Jose state for grad school (although he ended up with the mindset that what's the difference between 100k in debt and 250k and is getting a masters in Great Britain before likely going on to to law school). The problem is not the ultra-elite schools--Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Dartmouth, Williams, Brown, etc--with large endowments and need-based financial aid. The problem is the private schools in the middle, places that charge 50k a year but don't have generous aid programs. If your choice is between your state's university and Lehigh or GWU and you don't have money, by all means take his advice. But if you don't have money, and you can get in to Brown et al, then go. It is a deal. I grew up in an incredible working class family, and I had to pay Brown $650 a semester, my father had to pay about the same amount, and I graduated with 10k in debt...I did alright and hadn't won any fancy college scholarships. As for his larger claim that graduate school trumps undergraduate in employers minds, I think that is true only up to a point. The rankings of graduate schools across subject are radically different, and graduate school can have a lot more to do with circumstance. My wife is working at X, so I had to go to Y, I choose to do Y part-time because I love my job, I wanted to be a lawyer in Iowa so I went to Iowa state even though I got in to Harvard (know someone who did this), etc. But, the signal of what undergraduate school you went to is pretty clear and strong in most employers mind. I'm not under the delusion that Brown taught me much, that I could not have learned anywhere else, but the school you go to sends a strong economic signal about your abilities merely due to the admissions gateway itself. Now, there are special cases where you find yourself in your 20s and all that, but to many employers, being organized and "smart" enough high school so that Brown, Yale, Williams, UChicago accept you, is a relative indication of your abilities, even if you went somewhere less prestigious for grad school. Most importantly, though, on this second thought, is that the cases are not as clear cut as the author suggests. Signaling and employment are complicated, and they don't boil down to any simple formula like undergraduate reputation < graduate reputation or vice versa.
ataranto 16y ago
I'm amazed and shocked. I'm amazed and shocked that kuro5hin.org is still around.

31 points by wallflower 16y ago

Muzza 16y ago

"In most careers, a Master's degree is required". Really?

TGJ 16y ago
That's what I've heard from my professors. Bachelor level gets you working in the lower levels with the possibility to move up fairly small. Masters get working making more money and are the ones considered for promotions over any others barring PhDs.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- Muzza 16y ago
  But... The professoriat generally knows very little about industry and also have a built-in bias to pushing people towards more education.

devmonk 16y ago

Great post. "Grad schools is shorter." Author may want to fix the grammar here.

dxq 16y ago

I don't really see anything in the article that I would call "gaming" the higher-education system. Maybe you could argue that the concept of going to a cheaper school for undergrad and attending a prestigious grad school is gaming the system, but that's not exactly a secret. Achieve straight A's in high school, do well on standardized tests, suck up to professors, study absurd amounts... This is more a guide of how to fall victim to the higher-education system.

bobf 16y ago

I used a similar idea for my YC application answer to the non-computer hack question. Basically, I hacked the traditional education experience and graduated in 2.5 years, with ~$8500 of loans (without any scholarships/reduced tuition), and with lots of great work experience (I worked full time during school). Although I wouldn't advise this route for everyone, it worked out extremely well for me. Here are a few tips towards hacking the undergraduate experience: 1) As the author says, attend a high quality, low cost state school. If you're going to get a masters, undergrad institution doesn't matter beyond being able to get you into the masters program of your choosing. If you aren't going to get a masters, I would wager it doesn't truly matter what undergrad school you choose. 2) Determine your major before your first semester begins. 3) Plan your courses out meticulously, and don't take courses you don't need to. 4) Take as many classes online as you can. 5) Many professors lectures are fairly useless as they just regurgitate their powerpoint slides. Use this to your advantage -- do homework, work on your online classes, do freelance/telecommuting work. 6) Use a service like RateMyProfessors to find sensible professors - there are huge variances in amount of homework, number of tests, etc. between professors for the same course. 7) Night classes are generally easier and have less homework, because they are designed for non-traditional students with full time jobs during the day. 8) Take as many credits per semester as possible - for most majors, 15 is pretty easy for smart/dedicated people, even with working a part/full-time job. I took 24 my last semester, while working full time. It was basically hell, but you can do anything for 3-4 months of your life. (I probably wouldn't have done that, except an older guy I worked with said he had done 24 in his last semester of his masters program, working full time, and with a pregnant wife.) 9) Go year round, but take less classes in summer and get great internships/work more. 10) Books: a) Make sure you need to buy the book. Lots of classes don't really require buying the book. b) Make sure you really need the most recent edition, 95%+ of the time, the last edition or two editions ago was fine for me. c) If you have to buy a book, get used on Amazon marketplace, half.com, etc. and resell them there after the class is over. 11) Get a job. This will help pay bills and reduce the amount of debt you take. Ideally, get one which will benefit your career path and allows you to work on homework. (I was a systems administrator in a generally not very busy swing shift - among other jobs.) 12) Change jobs as often as you can find something that looks better on your resume or pays more. Every job I took paid $10k+ more than the previous, except when I took a pay cut to do a summer internship at Goldman Sachs ($50k to $40k).

tiber 16y ago

Wow 2009 called and wanted your shitty irrelevant website back.

mquander 16y ago
user: tiber created: 23 days ago karma: 1 about: Former K5er, /.er, digger Too bad you didn't put your phone number in there, or I'd give you a call and ask for advice about how I can stay on the cutting edge of the Internet like you.
- jedberg 16y ago
  At least he didn't taint the reddit name too. :)

mayank 16y ago

From TFA: > that's why profs shy away from foreign students: they can't contribute to discussions. In a field like computer science, or indeed any engineering, I haven't known a single professor to "shy away" from foreign students. To put it bluntly, they wouldn't have much choice if they did. The author prefaces his comment with "I don't mean to be a bigot", but unfortunately, just saying that doesn't mean what you say isn't bigotry. Lumping all "foreign students" into the same category sounds pretty bigoted to me. And I speak as a foreign student who is perfectly able to "contribute to discussions". FFS, "foreign" != "can't speak English"

gaius 16y ago
Most technical terms are English regardless of the language. When I was an undergrad we had a bunch of Greeks on my course, and when talking amongst themselves it sounded like malaga malaga second differential malaga malaga surface area... You could understand them perfectly. (malaga IIRC translates as "loser", the Greeks insult each other a lot).
- xilun0 16y ago
  I'm not sure you can generalise: for example Math can be done 100% in French (and is usually taught like that in France, at least up to the undergraduate level). I've no doubt in other languages too. Computer science is a little harder, but also doable. But I would say most people deeply engaged in the field of computer science also know the English terms regardless of their mother tongue.

krschultz 16y ago

"Here's what I view to be the optimal path: Go to a cheap (but flagship) state school (e.g., Penn State), enroll in the Honors program (due to great high school grades), pay virtually nothing, and then (marginally) get into an incredible Master's program at a school like Princeton; " What? Penn State for non-residents is $35-40k. I agree with his sentiment but Penn State is not a cheap school unless you live in PA, it is another example of a marquee program that is almost as expensive than a private school. (Actually it is more expensive than some very good private schools). Better advice is to go to the best state school in your own state, then go to the graduate program that is excellent in your field (which may or may not be Ivy).

pavel_lishin 16y ago
I figured that the example given was a generic case, for people living in PA.
InclinedPlane 16y ago
"flagship state school". He means your state, "Penn State" was just an example.

krschultz 16y ago

He completely misses that graduate programs are known for their specialization. " 3.Grad school is more important. Particularly, whether you're moving up or down: consider (a) undergrad at Penn State, grad at Harvard, vs. (b) undergrad at Harvard, grad at Penn State. Option (a) is universally considered better, and costs much less." Not exactly. Harvard is nowhere near the top of the mechanical engineering graduate program list. I'd be better off at the University of Illinois than Harvard if that is what I am doing. More importantly, what the hell do you want to do in your major? Some schools are great at fuel cells but not robotics. Some schools are great at AI and computer vision but not other CS disciplines. That is what you need to know.

pavel_lishin 16y ago
I think people are focusing too much on examples he gives, assuming he's recommending those specific schools to everyone, no matter what their actual interest is.

jdrock 16y ago

So.. gaming the system equates to studying well and working hard? That's.. not what's usually meant by "gaming"..

jerf 16y ago
"Congrats: you're a Princeton grad. For $60K. You gamed the system: you got the pedigree for just one years' tuition, at a school you probably couldn't have been admission to for undergrad." Emphasis mine.

linhir 16y ago

I just want to note, as Brown grad (he specifically points to Brown rather randomly), that unless your parents are "rich" but won't give you any money, you will never have 100k in debt from Brown or any "elite" school. That's just not how it works. Now I'm not saying you don't leave with debt--most of my friends have 20k or so in debt. I have about 9k, but that not the radically high number that is being quoting. The only person I know who has a huge amount of debt is from a family who has the money to pay full tuition (retirement funds, home equity, savings, etc) but would not pay a dime for their child's education. Now, maybe that's their right, but that friend (and former roommate) is the only person I know who graduated with such serious debt that they'd go to San Jose state for grad school (although he ended up with the mindset that what's the difference between 100k in debt and 250k and is getting a masters in Great Britain before likely going on to to law school). The problem is not the ultra-elite schools--Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Dartmouth, Williams, Brown, etc--with large endowments and need-based financial aid. The problem is the private schools in the middle, places that charge 50k a year but don't have generous aid programs. If your choice is between your state's university and Lehigh or GWU and you don't have money, by all means take his advice. But if you don't have money, and you can get in to Brown et al, then go. It is a deal. I grew up in an incredible working class family, and I had to pay Brown $650 a semester, my father had to pay about the same amount, and I graduated with 10k in debt...I did alright and hadn't won any fancy college scholarships. As for his larger claim that graduate school trumps undergraduate in employers minds, I think that is true only up to a point. The rankings of graduate schools across subject are radically different, and graduate school can have a lot more to do with circumstance. My wife is working at X, so I had to go to Y, I choose to do Y part-time because I love my job, I wanted to be a lawyer in Iowa so I went to Iowa state even though I got in to Harvard (know someone who did this), etc. But, the signal of what undergraduate school you went to is pretty clear and strong in most employers mind. I'm not under the delusion that Brown taught me much, that I could not have learned anywhere else, but the school you go to sends a strong economic signal about your abilities merely due to the admissions gateway itself. Now, there are special cases where you find yourself in your 20s and all that, but to many employers, being organized and "smart" enough high school so that Brown, Yale, Williams, UChicago accept you, is a relative indication of your abilities, even if you went somewhere less prestigious for grad school. Most importantly, though, on this second thought, is that the cases are not as clear cut as the author suggests. Signaling and employment are complicated, and they don't boil down to any simple formula like undergraduate reputation < graduate reputation or vice versa.

ataranto 16y ago

I'm amazed and shocked. I'm amazed and shocked that kuro5hin.org is still around.