7 ms·

When I read stuff like this I'm so glad to live in a country (France) that doesn't let people without any money when they're fired or have serious medical issue

by p4bl0 8y ago

When I read stuff like this I'm so glad to live in a country (France) that doesn't let people without any money when they're fired or have serious medical issues. Nation-wide solidarity costs little to each person but gives a lot to those who need it. So sad that our public unemployment and health systems are getting destroyed piece by piece by successive governments (the current one is particularly agressive).

fromthestart 8y ago
>Nation-wide solidarity costs little to each person Federal income tax in France is greater than 45%[1]. There's nothing cheap about that. I much prefer the freedom of saving my own money, especially when working in something as lucrative as tech. 1.https://tradingeconomics.com/france/personal-income-tax-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/france/personal-income-tax-rate
- simonsaidit 8y ago
  Yes if all you think about is yourself then that works well.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - antidesitter 8y ago
    > Yes if all you think about is yourself How does saving your own money preclude you from thinking about others?
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      It was implied in he commment, since commenter didn't add in a factor to cover donations to others.
      - antidesitter 8y ago
        Implied in which comment? Where?
    - Sharlin 8y ago
      Don't be obtuse. The OP had a very particularly selfish viewpoint: they prefer saving their own money because they happen to be in a situation that makes it (particularly) feasible. No mention about society as a whole.
      - dang 8y ago
        Please don't call names or take swipes at other users. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 8y ago
    Personal attacks aren't ok here. Please don't post like this, regardless of how wrong you think another commenter is. It degrades discussion considerably. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - simonsaidit 8y ago
      Note the if. But you’re welcome to s/you/someone. It’s ment as a general statement without going into the details as to why a welfare system might be a good idea. Also you’re judging that only thinking about yourself is a negative thing.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  Wow, that's actually a great deal. The top marginal tax rate in the state of California this year is roughly 65% (and that's excluding employer contributions). 13.3% of all income (State) + 39.6% of all income (Federal) + 5.3% of all income (Federal double tax on State Tax - thanks, Donny) + 6.2% of all income (Social Security - Individual) ===== 64.4% Then of course your employer pays another 6.2% of gross earnings on your behalf for social security too. And of course, in tech, your employer has to pay for your healthcare too, an average of $19,616, which also actually comes out of your paycheck. [1] Feel free to work out what percentage of your gross earnings that amounts to and tack that on top also. Good thing we've got the freedom to save the remaining ~33% while people go without basic health cover and social services. In years I earn a lot, I'd actually be better off in Canada. [1] https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-health-benefits-survey/ https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-health...
  - nickthemagicman 8y ago
    And it's the third biggest economy in the world. My conclusion is that having a huge healthy educated talent pool is more important to companies than taxes.
    - arcticbull 8y ago
      I agree completely.
  - ac29 8y ago
    The top marginal tax bracket in CA is for single people making $1M+, and higher if married. That's a lot, even for software engineers. A more realistic total combined tax for most people is well under 50%.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      For the UK with the NHS that figure would be 32% for most single people and less for those with kids.
- oblio 8y ago
  > Federal income tax 1. France is not a federal state. 2. Income tax doesn't pay (directly) for health insurance. Income tax also doesn't pay for social security. You're comparing apples to oranges.
- p4bl0 8y ago
  This is simply wrong. Income tax percentage depends on how much money you make, and it goes from 0% to 45%. You pay 0% up to 9807€ of income. Anything above that and under 27086€ you pay 14% on it. Then between that and 72617€ you pay 30% on it. And then between that and 153783€ you pay 41% on it. Finally, you pay 45% only if you make more than 153783€ per year and again, only on euros that you earn above this threshold. As an associate professor early in my career my income tax amounts to around 12% of my salary I think.
  - y04nn 8y ago
    No, this is right, you have wrong. You have your gross salary (brut) on which you and your employer pay taxes (routhly 30%). And then on top of that you pay the tax you describe with a progressive tax rate up to 45%. So on average, 45% seems good to me.
    - p4bl0 8y ago
      If you speak in gross rather than in net, then it is even a lot more than what you're saying. But then it is not income tax, which is the percentage of what was discussed. If you want to account for everything that is removed from your salary between gross cost for the employer and your net after taxes, it will surely be between 50% and 60% in average. But then we can talk about the benefit of all this. I don't know for you but I strongly prefer that and the ability for everyone to get an education, health, unemployment, retirement, infrastructures, etc. than doubling or even more my own salary. Viruses won't stop spreading if you have money. Health is a social and political issue, not a personal one. I like being able to drive everywhere and not just in cities where people are rich enough to pay for roads. I like that when a friend is fired from their job they can keep their appartement until they find a new job. I like teaching to everyone who wants to learn rather than to the children of people rich enough to pay for tuition fees. I like that my parents will get a retirement salary and won't be in my charge when I may also have kids to take care of. Now of course our system is not perfect and I largely idealized it here. But it is far better than if everyone would get their gross salary, paid no taxes, and would be able to care only for themselves.
- ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
  France also has a 20% VAT.
  - hef19898 8y ago
    Like a lot of European countries. For Germany the (very) rough rule of thumb is net salary equals 50% of gross salary (please refer to your German tax adiver or accountant for more details). That is after taxes, social security, health insurance and unemployment insurance.
    - rayiner 8y ago
      In the U.S. that's true for high income professionals in high-cost states. For more typical salaries, even good ones in big cities, it's more like take home is 75% of gross.
briandear 8y ago
> Nation-wide solidarity costs little to each person but gives a lot to those who need it. The money I save from French taxes (I left this year) I can easily afford all manner of insurance plus I get paid a heck of a lot more to save quite a bit of money. French employment is over 10% and the economy is stagnant. Could it be if you incentivize unemployment you get more of it? It sure seems like that in France. Chronic and intentional unemployment is not unusual in France. And everyone gets to pay for it. Disposable income in France is also significantly less than in the US.
- tomatocracy 8y ago
  The reasons for high unemployment in France are, I would suggest, more to do with how hard it is to fire people in France than taxes. If you know you'll be stuck with someone forever, you take the decision to hire much more seriously and you'd much rather ask an existing employee who's a known quantity to do more work instead (potentially even if you pay them more in raises than it would have cost to hire someone else). Contrast that to e.g. Denmark where taxes are arguably higher but making redundancies/reducing workforce is not anything close to as hard or expensive for the employer.
  - briandear 8y ago
    Fair point; the French labor code is the problem, however taxes are related; the high cost of being stuck with someone is higher due to social charges and taxes. Reforming the labor code and lowering taxes would both make the employment market more liquid.
    - arountheworld 8y ago
      It is sad how any comment with a slight critique of socialism gathers downvotes of an army of champagne socialists... people of different views choose not to speak because they are afraid of being attacked. Shame that hacker news has become such an echo chamber for socialism.
      - 8y ago
arountheworld 8y ago
Do those systems really work? Civil servants always find a way to deny support because you miss X or Z (I am talking mostly about the UK). I learned that it is best to take care yourself of yourself and don't depend on the state. I view the extra tax for the stuff I can't use as a theft.

by p4bl0 8y ago

fromthestart 8y ago

>Nation-wide solidarity costs little to each person Federal income tax in France is greater than 45%[1]. There's nothing cheap about that. I much prefer the freedom of saving my own money, especially when working in something as lucrative as tech. 1.https://tradingeconomics.com/france/personal-income-tax-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/france/personal-income-tax-rate

simonsaidit 8y ago
Yes if all you think about is yourself then that works well.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- antidesitter 8y ago
  > Yes if all you think about is yourself How does saving your own money preclude you from thinking about others?
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    It was implied in he commment, since commenter didn't add in a factor to cover donations to others.
    - antidesitter 8y ago
      Implied in which comment? Where?
  - Sharlin 8y ago
    Don't be obtuse. The OP had a very particularly selfish viewpoint: they prefer saving their own money because they happen to be in a situation that makes it (particularly) feasible. No mention about society as a whole.
    - dang 8y ago
      Please don't call names or take swipes at other users. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 8y ago
  Personal attacks aren't ok here. Please don't post like this, regardless of how wrong you think another commenter is. It degrades discussion considerably. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - simonsaidit 8y ago
    Note the if. But you’re welcome to s/you/someone. It’s ment as a general statement without going into the details as to why a welfare system might be a good idea. Also you’re judging that only thinking about yourself is a negative thing.
arcticbull 8y ago
Wow, that's actually a great deal. The top marginal tax rate in the state of California this year is roughly 65% (and that's excluding employer contributions). 13.3% of all income (State) + 39.6% of all income (Federal) + 5.3% of all income (Federal double tax on State Tax - thanks, Donny) + 6.2% of all income (Social Security - Individual) ===== 64.4% Then of course your employer pays another 6.2% of gross earnings on your behalf for social security too. And of course, in tech, your employer has to pay for your healthcare too, an average of $19,616, which also actually comes out of your paycheck. [1] Feel free to work out what percentage of your gross earnings that amounts to and tack that on top also. Good thing we've got the freedom to save the remaining ~33% while people go without basic health cover and social services. In years I earn a lot, I'd actually be better off in Canada. [1] https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-health-benefits-survey/ https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2018-employer-health...
- nickthemagicman 8y ago
  And it's the third biggest economy in the world. My conclusion is that having a huge healthy educated talent pool is more important to companies than taxes.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    I agree completely.
- ac29 8y ago
  The top marginal tax bracket in CA is for single people making $1M+, and higher if married. That's a lot, even for software engineers. A more realistic total combined tax for most people is well under 50%.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    For the UK with the NHS that figure would be 32% for most single people and less for those with kids.
oblio 8y ago
> Federal income tax 1. France is not a federal state. 2. Income tax doesn't pay (directly) for health insurance. Income tax also doesn't pay for social security. You're comparing apples to oranges.
p4bl0 8y ago
This is simply wrong. Income tax percentage depends on how much money you make, and it goes from 0% to 45%. You pay 0% up to 9807€ of income. Anything above that and under 27086€ you pay 14% on it. Then between that and 72617€ you pay 30% on it. And then between that and 153783€ you pay 41% on it. Finally, you pay 45% only if you make more than 153783€ per year and again, only on euros that you earn above this threshold. As an associate professor early in my career my income tax amounts to around 12% of my salary I think.
- y04nn 8y ago
  No, this is right, you have wrong. You have your gross salary (brut) on which you and your employer pay taxes (routhly 30%). And then on top of that you pay the tax you describe with a progressive tax rate up to 45%. So on average, 45% seems good to me.
  - p4bl0 8y ago
    If you speak in gross rather than in net, then it is even a lot more than what you're saying. But then it is not income tax, which is the percentage of what was discussed. If you want to account for everything that is removed from your salary between gross cost for the employer and your net after taxes, it will surely be between 50% and 60% in average. But then we can talk about the benefit of all this. I don't know for you but I strongly prefer that and the ability for everyone to get an education, health, unemployment, retirement, infrastructures, etc. than doubling or even more my own salary. Viruses won't stop spreading if you have money. Health is a social and political issue, not a personal one. I like being able to drive everywhere and not just in cities where people are rich enough to pay for roads. I like that when a friend is fired from their job they can keep their appartement until they find a new job. I like teaching to everyone who wants to learn rather than to the children of people rich enough to pay for tuition fees. I like that my parents will get a retirement salary and won't be in my charge when I may also have kids to take care of. Now of course our system is not perfect and I largely idealized it here. But it is far better than if everyone would get their gross salary, paid no taxes, and would be able to care only for themselves.
ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
France also has a 20% VAT.
- hef19898 8y ago
  Like a lot of European countries. For Germany the (very) rough rule of thumb is net salary equals 50% of gross salary (please refer to your German tax adiver or accountant for more details). That is after taxes, social security, health insurance and unemployment insurance.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    In the U.S. that's true for high income professionals in high-cost states. For more typical salaries, even good ones in big cities, it's more like take home is 75% of gross.

briandear 8y ago

> Nation-wide solidarity costs little to each person but gives a lot to those who need it. The money I save from French taxes (I left this year) I can easily afford all manner of insurance plus I get paid a heck of a lot more to save quite a bit of money. French employment is over 10% and the economy is stagnant. Could it be if you incentivize unemployment you get more of it? It sure seems like that in France. Chronic and intentional unemployment is not unusual in France. And everyone gets to pay for it. Disposable income in France is also significantly less than in the US.

tomatocracy 8y ago
The reasons for high unemployment in France are, I would suggest, more to do with how hard it is to fire people in France than taxes. If you know you'll be stuck with someone forever, you take the decision to hire much more seriously and you'd much rather ask an existing employee who's a known quantity to do more work instead (potentially even if you pay them more in raises than it would have cost to hire someone else). Contrast that to e.g. Denmark where taxes are arguably higher but making redundancies/reducing workforce is not anything close to as hard or expensive for the employer.
- briandear 8y ago
  Fair point; the French labor code is the problem, however taxes are related; the high cost of being stuck with someone is higher due to social charges and taxes. Reforming the labor code and lowering taxes would both make the employment market more liquid.
  - arountheworld 8y ago
    It is sad how any comment with a slight critique of socialism gathers downvotes of an army of champagne socialists... people of different views choose not to speak because they are afraid of being attacked. Shame that hacker news has become such an echo chamber for socialism.
    - 8y ago

arountheworld 8y ago

Do those systems really work? Civil servants always find a way to deny support because you miss X or Z (I am talking mostly about the UK). I learned that it is best to take care yourself of yourself and don't depend on the state. I view the extra tax for the stuff I can't use as a theft.