7 ms·

Looking at the graph, an at least equally accurate headline would be „inflation-adjusted median US income stays flat since the last 20 years while share of expe

Looking at the graph, an at least equally accurate headline would be „inflation-adjusted median US income stays flat since the last 20 years while share of expenses for medical, housing, childcare and education costs skyrockets in the same time“

tomhoward 8y ago
I know the validity of the CPI is controversial, and I'm expressing no opinion on its makeup and accuracy, but in theory the CPI is meant to adjust for all those items. https://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/cpi.asp https://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/cpi.asp
- sgc 8y ago
  Those are not CPI charts, but derived from them. And they are not accurate for the last few years due to methodological changes, where most of the supposed catch up has occurred. From a PEW study using the same numbers: "The 2015 ASEC utilized a redesigned set of income questions, so the household income figures reported for calendar year 2014 may not be fully comparable to earlier years. The 2014 ASEC tested the new redesigned income questions by offering five-eighths of the sample the traditional income questions and three-eighths of the sample the redesigned questions. Median household income for calendar year 2013 was $53,585 (in 2013 dollars) based on the redesigned income questions compared with an estimated $51,939 using the traditional income questions. The difference reflects both the different questionnaire and the different sampled households responding to the questionnaires." http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/methodology/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/methodology/ Nonetheless, even though these numbers attempt to take costs into account, and even if they were accurate, remaining stagnant over almost two decades of intense technological development indicates a societal failure.
  - politicalcalcs 8y ago
    Yes and no. The ASEC survey is capturing total money income, which is not the same as total compensation. It's an important difference, because total compensation includes things like the value of employer-provided health insurance that has never been included in the total money income measure. Also keep in mind that a lot of that intense technological development has resulted in falling costs for a wide variety of goods over time. http://www.aei.org/publication/the-chart-of-the-century-makes-the-rounds-at-the-federal-reserve/ http://www.aei.org/publication/the-chart-of-the-century-make... One of the bigger questions that society needs to answer is why the costs of the things that have been rising so much faster than incomes are doing so.
    - HarryHirsch 8y ago
      value of employer-provided health insurance that has never been included in the total money income measure How do you measure the value of that health insureance? You can of course post the sticker price, but the healthcare that the dollar buys you is difficult to measure. Life expectancy tells that the rest of the OECD is there with the US but pays 25 % of the costs. Also keep in mind that a lot of that intense technological development has resulted in falling costs for a wide variety of goods over time It's like a certain re-work of the Bible. Their version of Revelation 6 reads : "A pound of bread will now be 90 Euros. But the price of a Porsche will remain unchanged." And we all thought that the Apocalypse of St John was literature, not an accurate prediction of the future! Yes, technological progress can bring down the price of an i-Pad but won't do anything about the rent.
    - sgc 8y ago
      > One of the bigger questions that society needs to answer is why the costs of the things that have been rising so much faster than incomes are doing so. I don't really think it is a question that needs to be answered, but a problem that needs to be resolved. It's pretty well documented that income inequality in the US is at an all time high and will only get worse with more automation and recent changes to the tax codes.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Shivetya 8y ago
What do those four areas have in common, incredible levels of government manipulation and funding. Seriously, the areas where the government subsidizes, buries under regulation, or bleats about during election season, are all areas that suffer higher than normal costs increases.
- seibelj 8y ago
  Yes, and a lot of left-leaning people continue to think that “just a bit more government regulation and subsidies” and they’ll get it right - this time for sure! Housing - build more and higher density. Healthcare - price transparency and make it easier to shop around. Incentivize frugality. Education - stop letting 18 year olds take out $200k in loans for poetry degrees. It’s almost like industries protected from essential market functions become disasters! Who would have thought?
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    >Education - stop letting 18 year olds take out $200k in loans for poetry degrees. This sounds like government regulation? >Housing - build more and higher density. How do you account for the fact that not really anybody is making housing for the poor or low income, affordable housing because it's not profitable? There's plenty of demand, but extremely low supply. Would that be accomplished with government regulation and subsidies? >Healthcare - price transparency and make it easier to shop around. Incentivize frugality. Richest country on Earth ever, and we need to be frugal and maybe skip our insulin prescription this month. I don't think Government is the problem, the extreme want for extraordinary wealth and power created by this system of unchecked runaway Capitalism and that very influence of corruption on almost every representative is the problem.
    - seibelj 8y ago
      > >Education - stop letting 18 year olds take out $200k in loans for poetry degrees. > This sounds like government regulation? No - the reason students can take outrageous loans is that the government enforces that they always get paid back. There is no bankruptcy discharge for student debt. Consequently, universities increase prices as the government allows students to take more debt. No bank in the world would provide a $200k loan for a poetry degree if it could be discharged in bankruptcy. > >Housing - build more and higher density. > How do you account for the fact that not really anybody is making housing for the poor or low income, affordable housing because it's not profitable? There's plenty of demand, but extremely low supply. Would that be accomplished with government regulation and subsidies? The amount of red tape and bureaucracy required for building new housing, and other requirements like minimum lot sizes, makes it more economical to build higher-end units. But even with that, more total supply filters down and helps stabilize prices, including the lower end. The ultimate left-wing fantasy is rent control, as if regulating prices by government fiat magically solves the problem. > >Healthcare - price transparency and make it easier to shop around. Incentivize frugality. > Richest country on Earth ever, and we need to be frugal and maybe skip our insulin prescription this month. No, but if you were able to shop around for a major, but scheduled, surgery such as a hip replacement, you may choose a cheaper option if you were appropriately incentivized. People already fly to foreign countries to get procedures done, because travel, hotel, and the procedure are still cheaper and higher-quality than the American healthcare system.

tomhoward 8y ago

I know the validity of the CPI is controversial, and I'm expressing no opinion on its makeup and accuracy, but in theory the CPI is meant to adjust for all those items. https://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/cpi.asp https://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/cpi.asp

sgc 8y ago
Those are not CPI charts, but derived from them. And they are not accurate for the last few years due to methodological changes, where most of the supposed catch up has occurred. From a PEW study using the same numbers: "The 2015 ASEC utilized a redesigned set of income questions, so the household income figures reported for calendar year 2014 may not be fully comparable to earlier years. The 2014 ASEC tested the new redesigned income questions by offering five-eighths of the sample the traditional income questions and three-eighths of the sample the redesigned questions. Median household income for calendar year 2013 was $53,585 (in 2013 dollars) based on the redesigned income questions compared with an estimated $51,939 using the traditional income questions. The difference reflects both the different questionnaire and the different sampled households responding to the questionnaires." http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/methodology/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/methodology/ Nonetheless, even though these numbers attempt to take costs into account, and even if they were accurate, remaining stagnant over almost two decades of intense technological development indicates a societal failure.
- politicalcalcs 8y ago
  Yes and no. The ASEC survey is capturing total money income, which is not the same as total compensation. It's an important difference, because total compensation includes things like the value of employer-provided health insurance that has never been included in the total money income measure. Also keep in mind that a lot of that intense technological development has resulted in falling costs for a wide variety of goods over time. http://www.aei.org/publication/the-chart-of-the-century-makes-the-rounds-at-the-federal-reserve/ http://www.aei.org/publication/the-chart-of-the-century-make... One of the bigger questions that society needs to answer is why the costs of the things that have been rising so much faster than incomes are doing so.
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    value of employer-provided health insurance that has never been included in the total money income measure How do you measure the value of that health insureance? You can of course post the sticker price, but the healthcare that the dollar buys you is difficult to measure. Life expectancy tells that the rest of the OECD is there with the US but pays 25 % of the costs. Also keep in mind that a lot of that intense technological development has resulted in falling costs for a wide variety of goods over time It's like a certain re-work of the Bible. Their version of Revelation 6 reads : "A pound of bread will now be 90 Euros. But the price of a Porsche will remain unchanged." And we all thought that the Apocalypse of St John was literature, not an accurate prediction of the future! Yes, technological progress can bring down the price of an i-Pad but won't do anything about the rent.
  - sgc 8y ago
    > One of the bigger questions that society needs to answer is why the costs of the things that have been rising so much faster than incomes are doing so. I don't really think it is a question that needs to be answered, but a problem that needs to be resolved. It's pretty well documented that income inequality in the US is at an all time high and will only get worse with more automation and recent changes to the tax codes.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Shivetya 8y ago

What do those four areas have in common, incredible levels of government manipulation and funding. Seriously, the areas where the government subsidizes, buries under regulation, or bleats about during election season, are all areas that suffer higher than normal costs increases.

seibelj 8y ago
Yes, and a lot of left-leaning people continue to think that “just a bit more government regulation and subsidies” and they’ll get it right - this time for sure! Housing - build more and higher density. Healthcare - price transparency and make it easier to shop around. Incentivize frugality. Education - stop letting 18 year olds take out $200k in loans for poetry degrees. It’s almost like industries protected from essential market functions become disasters! Who would have thought?
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  >Education - stop letting 18 year olds take out $200k in loans for poetry degrees. This sounds like government regulation? >Housing - build more and higher density. How do you account for the fact that not really anybody is making housing for the poor or low income, affordable housing because it's not profitable? There's plenty of demand, but extremely low supply. Would that be accomplished with government regulation and subsidies? >Healthcare - price transparency and make it easier to shop around. Incentivize frugality. Richest country on Earth ever, and we need to be frugal and maybe skip our insulin prescription this month. I don't think Government is the problem, the extreme want for extraordinary wealth and power created by this system of unchecked runaway Capitalism and that very influence of corruption on almost every representative is the problem.
  - seibelj 8y ago
    > >Education - stop letting 18 year olds take out $200k in loans for poetry degrees. > This sounds like government regulation? No - the reason students can take outrageous loans is that the government enforces that they always get paid back. There is no bankruptcy discharge for student debt. Consequently, universities increase prices as the government allows students to take more debt. No bank in the world would provide a $200k loan for a poetry degree if it could be discharged in bankruptcy. > >Housing - build more and higher density. > How do you account for the fact that not really anybody is making housing for the poor or low income, affordable housing because it's not profitable? There's plenty of demand, but extremely low supply. Would that be accomplished with government regulation and subsidies? The amount of red tape and bureaucracy required for building new housing, and other requirements like minimum lot sizes, makes it more economical to build higher-end units. But even with that, more total supply filters down and helps stabilize prices, including the lower end. The ultimate left-wing fantasy is rent control, as if regulating prices by government fiat magically solves the problem. > >Healthcare - price transparency and make it easier to shop around. Incentivize frugality. > Richest country on Earth ever, and we need to be frugal and maybe skip our insulin prescription this month. No, but if you were able to shop around for a major, but scheduled, surgery such as a hip replacement, you may choose a cheaper option if you were appropriately incentivized. People already fly to foreign countries to get procedures done, because travel, hotel, and the procedure are still cheaper and higher-quality than the American healthcare system.