9 ms·

The excruciating final hours of George Washington (2014)

68 points by Petiver 8y ago

n0mad01 8y ago
At 9:30 a.m., another bloodletting of 18 ounces was performed followed by a similar withdrawal at 11 a.m. At noon, an enema was administered. or Dr. Craik ordered another bleeding. This time, 32 ounces were removed i wonder how much lifespan this measures did take off of him, in this particular instance maybe hours, days, or even some weeks (of course it could have also been the primary cause of death). but all this bollocks throughout a lifespan could well be measured in whole lost years. of course, i have no idea if this is true or not, it may also be that this kind of measures, if a body is just healthy enough, have no impact at all in the long run.
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  A weird case of having too much money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_net_worth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_Unit...) since cutting edge medicine he could afford at that time would be quackery today? The blistering agents applied in his throat and externally seem pretty painful, one today on my hand or foot is quite a hassle, on top of the bloodletting weakening a person. The 40% blood on his deathbed sounds incredible in hindsight but there are a few people who regularly give blood today as often as is permitted every couple of months without apparent ill effects.
  - avar 8y ago
    An adult male has around 5 liters of blood, when you donate blood they're withdrawing at most around 500 ml, so 10%. There's a huge difference in the health effects of losing 10% and 40% of your blood.
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    it might not be as painful as it sounds. i lost a large amount of blood once (to the point of browning out), and it basically feels like being really, really drunk. you don't really understand what's happening and you're pretty numb to things like pain.
    - exolymph 8y ago
      That sounds kinda nice!
  - chasil 8y ago
    You're right that he had too much money. After reading this, my sympathy is tempered. https://www.amazon.com/Never-Caught-Washingtons-Relentless-Pursuit/dp/1501126393 https://www.amazon.com/Never-Caught-Washingtons-Relentless-P... Washington had hundreds of slaves, yet he sent his family and political allies repeatedly against the single escapee, Ona Judge in Portsmouth, NH. The governor of New Hampshire surely regretted his involvement of his daughter. That was quite a story. It bothers me about him. I think of the three-fifths compromise (which most people around me are astonished to grasp), and the lives of the founders make me cringe.
    - stevenwoo 8y ago
      Yes, I was angry when I learned about that in junior high or high school and the teachers usually wave that off with something like it was common back then, but there were plenty of others who did not have slaves.
- walshemj 8y ago
  From the sudden onset and the fever I wonder if Washington had an episode of sepsis. Last month I went from felling ok to "I need a repeat prescription" to shaking and running a temperature with massive drop on blood pressure. The next day I went to hospital started in the ordinary renal ward then to the serious cases renal then to critical care unit with 4 tubes in me. I also got read the riot act about not calling 911 immediately
  - watersb 8y ago
    Glad you are ok. Glad for modern medicine. For all the troublesome aspects of distribution and administration, it is better than nothing, and better now than it was hundereds of years ago.
brianbreslin 8y ago
Amazing how a medical doctor from that era would probably be put in jail today for the treatments they did.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  We should put things in perspective. Nowadays doctors still treat diseases by cutting off bits out of the patient, and dentists still employ medieval procedures.
  - mannykannot 8y ago
    If your dentist does not have the option of using local anesthesia, to pick just one of a great many things not available to a medieval tooth-puller, you might want to consider switching to another practitioner.
  - Moto7451 8y ago
    Mine uses a scanning array and a 3D milling machine to manufacture implants and fillings in office. Not all that medieval. You may just need a new dentist.
    - geezerjay 8y ago
      > Mine uses a scanning array and a 3D milling machine to manufacture implants and fillings in office. Not all that medieval. How did your dentist found room in your mouth to jam in some implants? That sort of thing is pretty medieval even if you sugarcoat your modern day version of wooden dentures with CAD software and CNC milling machines.
      - Moto7451 8y ago
        Because they’re able to detect issues before they get that bad, all my natural teeth are in place. I come in, they scan my teeth, drill out a tiny amount of decay before it turns into something that requires a tooth to be removed, and precisely mill a filling instead of hammering and drilling away my teeth to fill it with some lead alloy like the days of old. Anyone doing that is stuck in decades old practices. I understand where you’re trying to go with your comment. It’s simply not the case that we’re being given bottles of gin while the dentist pulls out a hammer and chisel. I just went in and had part of my tooth replaced because part of it crushed (I have very bad teeth). I felt zero pain. My heart rate remained under 60 the whole time. It was quick and easy. Good Dentists are not mad scientists out to destroy you for financial gain.
TwoBit 8y ago
So would he have died anyway?
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Yes, eventually.
- melling 8y ago
  https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/bloodletting-blisters-solving-medical-mystery-george-washingtons-death https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/bloodletting-blisters-solv...
- dhnsmakala 8y ago
  Without these treatments, he could have been alive today. It's a great shame.
timmytokyo 8y ago
As ridiculous as these medical treatments sound to the modern ear, I wonder how people will look back on our "state of the art" 200 years from now.
- andrewflnr 8y ago
  Between the emergence of resistant bacterial strains and growing understanding of internal microbiomes, the future will not look kindly on our use of antibiotics. And of course, you don't need to go into the future to find people who look dimly on the state of the art in nutrition.
  - refurb 8y ago
    Won’t look too kindly? The alternative to antibiotics in a lot of these cases is death. Not sure anyone would look at that “unkindly”.
    - Ensorceled 8y ago
      I believe the parent was thinking of our using antibiotics for things like increasing growth rates in livestock, hand soap marketing, and viral infections; but maybe your incredibly uncharitable interpretation is correct ...
    - andrewflnr 8y ago
      Sure, those specific cases are justified. A lot of others aren't. I guess in the context of blood-letting it wasn't clear I meant they would look unkindly on our policy as a whole, rather than on using them at all.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    While overprescription of antibiotics to human patients has been a problem, I think that the antibiotics usage that the future will really look back on unkindly is the massive use of antibiotics in the livestock industry. Wastewater from that is a major contribution to bacterial resistance.
microcolonel 8y ago
It seems one of the greatest lessons learned in medicine has been not to "do something, anything!". Hopefully this lesson can be learned by economists and voters.
anonu 8y ago
This story makes me happy that we have modern medicine. But I am reminded that not too long ago we used to do lobotomies on the regular. So I still take most medical advice with a grain of salt....
- tw1010 8y ago
  There are way worse things that you could experience which is present even today (psycological things especially). This doesn't sound too bad actually.
  - selestify 8y ago
    What kind of psychological things are so bad?
    - KSteffensen 8y ago
      Schizophrenia, depression
- candiodari 8y ago
  "We" imprison people for decades ... because they got "diagnosed" with ADD, a psychological condition for which there is not even consensus that it exists, never mind how to correctly diagnose it. Not that the lack of diagnosis procedure really matters : the diagnosis is usually carried out by completely unqualified personnel. (specifically preschool teachers make the diagnosis, and the odds that these children ever see a real psychologist is 50% at best) It's called "child services". http://sciencenordic.com/half-all-foster-kids-norway-have-mental-disorders http://sciencenordic.com/half-all-foster-kids-norway-have-me... (I mean any cursory study of the child services system in Norway will quickly yield the insight that the real problem is racism in child services itself, and not ADD/ADHD or any other mental disorders, but we're supposed to believe that the people involved are at least acting in good faith for some reason. Even if they're raging racists having children of immigrants abducted, apparently) Mental health care ... has the same problem (whilst I'm sure the details are different in the US, please do remember: getting any kind of help at all, for any reason, from state health care, legally speaking is a totally unacceptable risk. You just cannot control what happens and you have no recourse. Stay away, and immediately respond VERY strongly on any whiff of attention to your kids). In Norway any competent lawyer should advise you that you can NEVER give your real name to any psychiatrist. It is a totally unacceptable risk. (Decades ? Yes, decades: from 2-3-4 years old up to 25 years old. Imprison ? Yep, imprison)
partycoder 8y ago
George Washington on Native Americans: "The immediate objects are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now in the ground and prevent their planting more." https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-20-02-0661 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-20-02-... This is part of the scorched earth tactics that resulted in not only the death of millions of natives but the almost extinction of the American Bison, an importance source of food and clothing for many tribes.
- purple-again 8y ago
  All things should judged within their specific context lest history forget Martin Luther King Jr for unthinkable crime of roasting living creatures and feeding them to his young children.
  - partycoder 8y ago
    Sun Tzu lived thousands of years before Washington, yet he was more civilized. A true general would not need to conduct a war of attrition with scorched-earth tactics against tribes in the bronze age. Not only Natives had inferior weaponry, they also were not familiar with writing, mapmaking and did not having navigation tools like the compass... limiting any form of military planning. Washington had a wide spectrum of options and he chose to be immoral.
    - oh_sigh 8y ago
      How would a true general take care of a disperse force that relied on small scale attacks and hit and run tactics?
      - partycoder 8y ago
        He had many options, he wasn't forced to use a scorched-earth tactic. But he did, and because he did we can say that not only he acted in an immoral way, but set a precedent and a bad example for others to follow.

68 points by Petiver 8y ago

At 9:30 a.m., another bloodletting of 18 ounces was performed followed by a similar withdrawal at 11 a.m. At noon, an enema was administered. or Dr. Craik ordered another bleeding. This time, 32 ounces were removed i wonder how much lifespan this measures did take off of him, in this particular instance maybe hours, days, or even some weeks (of course it could have also been the primary cause of death). but all this bollocks throughout a lifespan could well be measured in whole lost years. of course, i have no idea if this is true or not, it may also be that this kind of measures, if a body is just healthy enough, have no impact at all in the long run.

stevenwoo 8y ago
A weird case of having too much money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_net_worth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_Unit...) since cutting edge medicine he could afford at that time would be quackery today? The blistering agents applied in his throat and externally seem pretty painful, one today on my hand or foot is quite a hassle, on top of the bloodletting weakening a person. The 40% blood on his deathbed sounds incredible in hindsight but there are a few people who regularly give blood today as often as is permitted every couple of months without apparent ill effects.
- avar 8y ago
  An adult male has around 5 liters of blood, when you donate blood they're withdrawing at most around 500 ml, so 10%. There's a huge difference in the health effects of losing 10% and 40% of your blood.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  it might not be as painful as it sounds. i lost a large amount of blood once (to the point of browning out), and it basically feels like being really, really drunk. you don't really understand what's happening and you're pretty numb to things like pain.
  - exolymph 8y ago
    That sounds kinda nice!
- chasil 8y ago
  You're right that he had too much money. After reading this, my sympathy is tempered. https://www.amazon.com/Never-Caught-Washingtons-Relentless-Pursuit/dp/1501126393 https://www.amazon.com/Never-Caught-Washingtons-Relentless-P... Washington had hundreds of slaves, yet he sent his family and political allies repeatedly against the single escapee, Ona Judge in Portsmouth, NH. The governor of New Hampshire surely regretted his involvement of his daughter. That was quite a story. It bothers me about him. I think of the three-fifths compromise (which most people around me are astonished to grasp), and the lives of the founders make me cringe.
  - stevenwoo 8y ago
    Yes, I was angry when I learned about that in junior high or high school and the teachers usually wave that off with something like it was common back then, but there were plenty of others who did not have slaves.
walshemj 8y ago
From the sudden onset and the fever I wonder if Washington had an episode of sepsis. Last month I went from felling ok to "I need a repeat prescription" to shaking and running a temperature with massive drop on blood pressure. The next day I went to hospital started in the ordinary renal ward then to the serious cases renal then to critical care unit with 4 tubes in me. I also got read the riot act about not calling 911 immediately
- watersb 8y ago
  Glad you are ok. Glad for modern medicine. For all the troublesome aspects of distribution and administration, it is better than nothing, and better now than it was hundereds of years ago.

brianbreslin 8y ago

Amazing how a medical doctor from that era would probably be put in jail today for the treatments they did.

geezerjay 8y ago
We should put things in perspective. Nowadays doctors still treat diseases by cutting off bits out of the patient, and dentists still employ medieval procedures.
- mannykannot 8y ago
  If your dentist does not have the option of using local anesthesia, to pick just one of a great many things not available to a medieval tooth-puller, you might want to consider switching to another practitioner.
- Moto7451 8y ago
  Mine uses a scanning array and a 3D milling machine to manufacture implants and fillings in office. Not all that medieval. You may just need a new dentist.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    > Mine uses a scanning array and a 3D milling machine to manufacture implants and fillings in office. Not all that medieval. How did your dentist found room in your mouth to jam in some implants? That sort of thing is pretty medieval even if you sugarcoat your modern day version of wooden dentures with CAD software and CNC milling machines.
    - Moto7451 8y ago
      Because they’re able to detect issues before they get that bad, all my natural teeth are in place. I come in, they scan my teeth, drill out a tiny amount of decay before it turns into something that requires a tooth to be removed, and precisely mill a filling instead of hammering and drilling away my teeth to fill it with some lead alloy like the days of old. Anyone doing that is stuck in decades old practices. I understand where you’re trying to go with your comment. It’s simply not the case that we’re being given bottles of gin while the dentist pulls out a hammer and chisel. I just went in and had part of my tooth replaced because part of it crushed (I have very bad teeth). I felt zero pain. My heart rate remained under 60 the whole time. It was quick and easy. Good Dentists are not mad scientists out to destroy you for financial gain.

TwoBit 8y ago

So would he have died anyway?

craftyguy 8y ago
Yes, eventually.
melling 8y ago
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/bloodletting-blisters-solving-medical-mystery-george-washingtons-death https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/bloodletting-blisters-solv...
dhnsmakala 8y ago
Without these treatments, he could have been alive today. It's a great shame.

timmytokyo 8y ago

As ridiculous as these medical treatments sound to the modern ear, I wonder how people will look back on our "state of the art" 200 years from now.

andrewflnr 8y ago
Between the emergence of resistant bacterial strains and growing understanding of internal microbiomes, the future will not look kindly on our use of antibiotics. And of course, you don't need to go into the future to find people who look dimly on the state of the art in nutrition.
- refurb 8y ago
  Won’t look too kindly? The alternative to antibiotics in a lot of these cases is death. Not sure anyone would look at that “unkindly”.
  - Ensorceled 8y ago
    I believe the parent was thinking of our using antibiotics for things like increasing growth rates in livestock, hand soap marketing, and viral infections; but maybe your incredibly uncharitable interpretation is correct ...
  - andrewflnr 8y ago
    Sure, those specific cases are justified. A lot of others aren't. I guess in the context of blood-letting it wasn't clear I meant they would look unkindly on our policy as a whole, rather than on using them at all.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  While overprescription of antibiotics to human patients has been a problem, I think that the antibiotics usage that the future will really look back on unkindly is the massive use of antibiotics in the livestock industry. Wastewater from that is a major contribution to bacterial resistance.

microcolonel 8y ago

It seems one of the greatest lessons learned in medicine has been not to "do something, anything!". Hopefully this lesson can be learned by economists and voters.

anonu 8y ago

This story makes me happy that we have modern medicine. But I am reminded that not too long ago we used to do lobotomies on the regular. So I still take most medical advice with a grain of salt....

tw1010 8y ago
There are way worse things that you could experience which is present even today (psycological things especially). This doesn't sound too bad actually.
- selestify 8y ago
  What kind of psychological things are so bad?
  - KSteffensen 8y ago
    Schizophrenia, depression
candiodari 8y ago
"We" imprison people for decades ... because they got "diagnosed" with ADD, a psychological condition for which there is not even consensus that it exists, never mind how to correctly diagnose it. Not that the lack of diagnosis procedure really matters : the diagnosis is usually carried out by completely unqualified personnel. (specifically preschool teachers make the diagnosis, and the odds that these children ever see a real psychologist is 50% at best) It's called "child services". http://sciencenordic.com/half-all-foster-kids-norway-have-mental-disorders http://sciencenordic.com/half-all-foster-kids-norway-have-me... (I mean any cursory study of the child services system in Norway will quickly yield the insight that the real problem is racism in child services itself, and not ADD/ADHD or any other mental disorders, but we're supposed to believe that the people involved are at least acting in good faith for some reason. Even if they're raging racists having children of immigrants abducted, apparently) Mental health care ... has the same problem (whilst I'm sure the details are different in the US, please do remember: getting any kind of help at all, for any reason, from state health care, legally speaking is a totally unacceptable risk. You just cannot control what happens and you have no recourse. Stay away, and immediately respond VERY strongly on any whiff of attention to your kids). In Norway any competent lawyer should advise you that you can NEVER give your real name to any psychiatrist. It is a totally unacceptable risk. (Decades ? Yes, decades: from 2-3-4 years old up to 25 years old. Imprison ? Yep, imprison)

partycoder 8y ago

George Washington on Native Americans: "The immediate objects are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now in the ground and prevent their planting more." https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-20-02-0661 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-20-02-... This is part of the scorched earth tactics that resulted in not only the death of millions of natives but the almost extinction of the American Bison, an importance source of food and clothing for many tribes.

purple-again 8y ago
All things should judged within their specific context lest history forget Martin Luther King Jr for unthinkable crime of roasting living creatures and feeding them to his young children.
- partycoder 8y ago
  Sun Tzu lived thousands of years before Washington, yet he was more civilized. A true general would not need to conduct a war of attrition with scorched-earth tactics against tribes in the bronze age. Not only Natives had inferior weaponry, they also were not familiar with writing, mapmaking and did not having navigation tools like the compass... limiting any form of military planning. Washington had a wide spectrum of options and he chose to be immoral.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    How would a true general take care of a disperse force that relied on small scale attacks and hit and run tactics?
    - partycoder 8y ago
      He had many options, he wasn't forced to use a scorched-earth tactic. But he did, and because he did we can say that not only he acted in an immoral way, but set a precedent and a bad example for others to follow.