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Users banding together to send crypto anonymously toward their favorite sites and creators is not "parasitic" -- you and your browser are the host, already colo

Users banding together to send crypto anonymously toward their favorite sites and creators is not "parasitic" -- you and your browser are the host, already colonized by tracking scripts for ads if you don't use a no-compromises blocker such as uBO. Users' right to block is well supported by web standards and case law. Adding a separate, direct to creator funding option is not parasitism, it is found money for creators. To see someone here call our opt-in (meaning that each user consents without duress) anonymous micro-contributions and (coming up fast) private ads model layered on top such a name tells me that person has confused host and parasite, or is working for one of the parasites. It was never a given that your browser should become a blind and passive servant to surveillance super-companies either wholly or partly dependent on ads, but such companies did capture arguably 3 of the top 4 browsers. Now is the time for users to push back, whether by Brave if you like it, a blocker such as uBO on a browser that doesn't track you by default (perhaps when "logged in"; whatever), or another method that works for you. I hope those who have not yet will give Brave a try. https://brave.com/download-dev https://brave.com/download-dev for the chromium-extensions-ready new version.

mswift42 8y ago
> Users banding together to send crypto anonymously toward their favorite sites and creators is not "parasitic" True, but replacing ads you don't get compensated for with ads you do, is.
- andrewmutz 8y ago
  I don’t know Brave well enough: what ads does Brave insert?
  - BrendanEich 8y ago
    We do not insert any ads. In 2016 we proposed that Brave, a browser, could allow users and publishers to get better revenue through a private ad model that does not entail any tracking or user data in the clear on servers. We ran some placeholder ads to show the concept off. These are disabled now. This caused a reaction. The letter we got (I mentioned it in my last comment) from a publisher group asserted that the publishers own copyright and trademark on third-party ads on their sites. This was comical in view of malware getting on the New York Times, BBC Online, AOL and other sites the month before (March 2016). Publishers do not own (c) or (tm) on any ads they don't create, of course -- certainly not on so-called third party ads, especially malware. Or they'd be liable. Anyway, baseline Brave is just a top-speed (better than using JS in extension code) blocker by default. All token options are optional, users and (if involved) publishers choose.
    - BrendanEich 8y ago
      Note that browsers already do the mechanics of inserting ads today, unless the ad is a fixed element on the served page, which is quite rare. Even then, to pay, ads need confirmation tracking if not target tracking before placement by scripts. In this sense, all browsers insert the vast majority of ads today. Intermediary businesses insert scripts before, during, and after ads too. Browsers and extensions may block scripts. The part of the ad ecosystem that Brave transposes to the browser, again if and only if each user and (if in the deal: ad slot in page, not in user space) publisher agrees, is the matching of ad to context including user interest, and the attribution and confirmation of ad view or interaction. This is done without any tracking or user data on servers — including our servers. Also no user fingerprinting on any blockchain, it is super-important to avoid this. How matching works: if you opt into the ad system, you get a catalog, same as everyone gets in a large region speaking the same natural language. The catalog lists edge url and metadata on each ad or offer. It compresses well and slowly updates. Downloading it or updating it with new ad deals for all in the region/language does not identify you. We have started with global/English for trials. Local machine learning studies local data, again only if you opt in. This agent sees the sum of all user inputs to the browser: search queries (you own your query log — the search engine does not and the agent does not scrape search results, just user inputs and navigation); e-commerce form filling and buying; social graph edges from you to your friends; tab and window constellations; scrolling on actually viewed content. With our secret-key cross device sync option, your data can be a full cross device view of your browsing, and only you have the key to decrypt this data. We cannot see it, we see only encrypted blobs in cloud storage. QR code and camera pairing with secret key as wordlist are what you see and do, to use Brave Sync (user testing soon). Say you are shopping for a new camera during lunch, but on most days go back to work after lunch. The agent knows this and does not bug you too soon. But later, after work, when you are idle, an OS notification floats a brief call to action ad (like a search ad, a few lines of text and minimal image branding). This self dismisses but you can find it in Brave. If you click the View button, Brave is focused if not already and a new tab opens with a full landing page ad or offer. You can thumbs-down on the ad if it didn’t work. You can close the tab whenever you like. You are not identified to the ad’s brand or any other party by opening tab — Brave shields are still up. But if you like the ad, you can act on it. You get 70% of the gross, which can be large for lead-gen ads such as making a test drive appointment with a car dealer. Publisher ads work similarly and can even place just based on page context, not on any local user data. We always give the ad space owner 70%. We always pay the user >= what we make. If you just form an impression, view a video by quartiles, even click on a download button for an app, or open further pages, you are not identified. Chaum blind certificates attest to your ad actions but without any user identifier. We already use the ANONIZE protocol for anonymous contributions to your top sites and YouTube accounts. In no case do you identify to any party, including us, as a tracked user — unless you choose to, in a clear page in tab aka first party setting.
- BrendanEich 8y ago
  We don't replace ads on publisher sites without that publisher as partner; they get 70% of the gross revenue, user gets 15%. No point repeating something you heard a while ago from the NAA when they wrote a "Cease and Desist" letter to us that did not contain those words (because we weren't doing anything to cease or desist). All our opt-in models require consent. User-private ads go in user-owned channels (notifications and tabs), not in publisher inventory, if the user opts in. User gets 70%.
  - lern_too_spel 8y ago
    You've given them the choice of not monetizing their content or paying you. It's the slimy Mafia business model. There is nothing decentralized about this.
    - BrendanEich 8y ago
      The data model is already more decentralized than any blockchain: 430K user wallets with user data only on device. All ad blockers reduce "monetization" of content by ads. That is a primal design point of web standards, and a right of all users per case law. The only Mafia model in ad blocking is the "acceptable ads" shakedown where Google pays 8 figures to Eyeo to let some ads through. This is also why AdBlock Plus disables EasyPrivacy by default (you have to turn it on; if you do, that breaks the whitelisted ad tracking/confirmation). But I see from your recent HN posts that you are trollish, so I'll stop here and hope this reply is of benefit to others.
  - joshuamorton 8y ago
    Do you have a list of publisher partners anywhere?
    - BrendanEich 8y ago
      Over 23,000 creators verified but we do not list without consent. You can see verified status in the Payments panel in settings after taking a free token grant to fund your wallet.

mswift42 8y ago

> Users banding together to send crypto anonymously toward their favorite sites and creators is not "parasitic" True, but replacing ads you don't get compensated for with ads you do, is.

andrewmutz 8y ago
I don’t know Brave well enough: what ads does Brave insert?
- BrendanEich 8y ago
  We do not insert any ads. In 2016 we proposed that Brave, a browser, could allow users and publishers to get better revenue through a private ad model that does not entail any tracking or user data in the clear on servers. We ran some placeholder ads to show the concept off. These are disabled now. This caused a reaction. The letter we got (I mentioned it in my last comment) from a publisher group asserted that the publishers own copyright and trademark on third-party ads on their sites. This was comical in view of malware getting on the New York Times, BBC Online, AOL and other sites the month before (March 2016). Publishers do not own (c) or (tm) on any ads they don't create, of course -- certainly not on so-called third party ads, especially malware. Or they'd be liable. Anyway, baseline Brave is just a top-speed (better than using JS in extension code) blocker by default. All token options are optional, users and (if involved) publishers choose.
  - BrendanEich 8y ago
    Note that browsers already do the mechanics of inserting ads today, unless the ad is a fixed element on the served page, which is quite rare. Even then, to pay, ads need confirmation tracking if not target tracking before placement by scripts. In this sense, all browsers insert the vast majority of ads today. Intermediary businesses insert scripts before, during, and after ads too. Browsers and extensions may block scripts. The part of the ad ecosystem that Brave transposes to the browser, again if and only if each user and (if in the deal: ad slot in page, not in user space) publisher agrees, is the matching of ad to context including user interest, and the attribution and confirmation of ad view or interaction. This is done without any tracking or user data on servers — including our servers. Also no user fingerprinting on any blockchain, it is super-important to avoid this. How matching works: if you opt into the ad system, you get a catalog, same as everyone gets in a large region speaking the same natural language. The catalog lists edge url and metadata on each ad or offer. It compresses well and slowly updates. Downloading it or updating it with new ad deals for all in the region/language does not identify you. We have started with global/English for trials. Local machine learning studies local data, again only if you opt in. This agent sees the sum of all user inputs to the browser: search queries (you own your query log — the search engine does not and the agent does not scrape search results, just user inputs and navigation); e-commerce form filling and buying; social graph edges from you to your friends; tab and window constellations; scrolling on actually viewed content. With our secret-key cross device sync option, your data can be a full cross device view of your browsing, and only you have the key to decrypt this data. We cannot see it, we see only encrypted blobs in cloud storage. QR code and camera pairing with secret key as wordlist are what you see and do, to use Brave Sync (user testing soon). Say you are shopping for a new camera during lunch, but on most days go back to work after lunch. The agent knows this and does not bug you too soon. But later, after work, when you are idle, an OS notification floats a brief call to action ad (like a search ad, a few lines of text and minimal image branding). This self dismisses but you can find it in Brave. If you click the View button, Brave is focused if not already and a new tab opens with a full landing page ad or offer. You can thumbs-down on the ad if it didn’t work. You can close the tab whenever you like. You are not identified to the ad’s brand or any other party by opening tab — Brave shields are still up. But if you like the ad, you can act on it. You get 70% of the gross, which can be large for lead-gen ads such as making a test drive appointment with a car dealer. Publisher ads work similarly and can even place just based on page context, not on any local user data. We always give the ad space owner 70%. We always pay the user >= what we make. If you just form an impression, view a video by quartiles, even click on a download button for an app, or open further pages, you are not identified. Chaum blind certificates attest to your ad actions but without any user identifier. We already use the ANONIZE protocol for anonymous contributions to your top sites and YouTube accounts. In no case do you identify to any party, including us, as a tracked user — unless you choose to, in a clear page in tab aka first party setting.
BrendanEich 8y ago
We don't replace ads on publisher sites without that publisher as partner; they get 70% of the gross revenue, user gets 15%. No point repeating something you heard a while ago from the NAA when they wrote a "Cease and Desist" letter to us that did not contain those words (because we weren't doing anything to cease or desist). All our opt-in models require consent. User-private ads go in user-owned channels (notifications and tabs), not in publisher inventory, if the user opts in. User gets 70%.
- lern_too_spel 8y ago
  You've given them the choice of not monetizing their content or paying you. It's the slimy Mafia business model. There is nothing decentralized about this.
  - BrendanEich 8y ago
    The data model is already more decentralized than any blockchain: 430K user wallets with user data only on device. All ad blockers reduce "monetization" of content by ads. That is a primal design point of web standards, and a right of all users per case law. The only Mafia model in ad blocking is the "acceptable ads" shakedown where Google pays 8 figures to Eyeo to let some ads through. This is also why AdBlock Plus disables EasyPrivacy by default (you have to turn it on; if you do, that breaks the whitelisted ad tracking/confirmation). But I see from your recent HN posts that you are trollish, so I'll stop here and hope this reply is of benefit to others.
- joshuamorton 8y ago
  Do you have a list of publisher partners anywhere?
  - BrendanEich 8y ago
    Over 23,000 creators verified but we do not list without consent. You can see verified status in the Payments panel in settings after taking a free token grant to fund your wallet.