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> It amazes me how many people claim English is easy to learn People think english is simple because we don't have the gender+conjugation+declension system of

> It amazes me how many people claim English is easy to learn People think english is simple because we don't have the gender+conjugation+declension system of many languages. So initially, english appears simple. A boat is a boat is a boat. But everywhere else - from spelling to grammar to phonetics, english is irregular and has so many exceptions that it really requires effort to become native or even fluent. One cow or many cows vs one sheep vs many sheep? One goose or many geese vs one moose vs many moose? Though goose can become gooses if you use it as a verb. Or look at envelope. You pronounce it differently depending on whether you use it as a noun, verb or adjective ( though it might be a regional thing ). And of course the nearly non-systematic accent/emphasis of syllables which you simply have to learn through listening. Whereas languages like latin have fairly consistent and systematic rules for accent/emphasis. And then there is the british insistence on adding a 'u' to words like labor or harbor.

FabHK 8y ago
I've seen this quote attributed to G B Shaw: "English is one of the easiest languages to speak badly, but one of the most difficult to speak well"; however, I can't find a reliable citation. At any rate, I think it captures something about English. As you say, languages like German and French take more effort to learn initially (conjugation and (in German) declension), but then there are only a few ways of expressing something correctly. English has so many synonyms with slightly different connotations and idiomatic nuances that it is hard to master.
- tormeh 8y ago
  But I think this is the way languages have to work if they're supposed to be spoken by non-native speakers or just spoken by a large number of geographically dispersed people. Even German is losing a lot of its initial complexity because of the last decades of immigration. This is mostly just in spoken German for now, but the written word will eventually follow. And all languages with wide geographic dispersion have a disconnect between the spoken word and the written spelling, the most extreme example being Chinese.
- posterboy 8y ago
  > English has so many synonyms with slightly different connotations and idiomatic nuances that it is hard to master. You imply the goal was to be precise. The crux is, what you call slightly different connotation is often enough ambiguity and the goal is to be as ambiguous as possible to be understood by as many people as possible without loosing precision, that is without mistakenly falling in the trap of a nuanced connotation. Point in case for you, my spelling correction does not know "connotated", so that may be a nuance of the English language I was not aware of. Point in case for me, connotated nuanced synonyms (or synonymous nuanced connotations) is a redundant bag of words with something for everyone, yet unspecific enough to leave me guessing, finding no difference between those my two expressions above. ...
- lolc 8y ago
  > English has so many synonyms with slightly different connotations and idiomatic nuances that it is hard to master. At some point I accepted that this is true for every language. First there's training basic grammar and initial vocabulary (a few months' study) and then there's mastering the long tail of idiomatic expressions (years of study). The first gives you the ability to talk about any topic. Only the second gives you effortless communication.
hannasanarion 8y ago
"simple" is not synonymous with "easy to learn". There is some research that suggests that it is easier for adults to learn isolating languages, like English and Mandarin, than it is for adults to learn synthetic languages like German, Russian, or Arabic. In other words, adults are better at learning lists of words than systems for constructing words. The fewer grammatical morphemes they need to learn, the faster they can reach functional fluency.
- lolc 8y ago
  Interesting! Can you recommend papers on that?
  - hannasanarion 8y ago
    I learned this from a linguistic typology course a few years back, and that professor didn't use slides, so I had to do some digging on my own, and this paper seems to cover all the bases, with a nice literature review to boot: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01141/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.0114...
- liftbigweights 8y ago
  > "simple" is not synonymous with "easy to learn". I used simple in reference to "gender+conjugation+declension system of many languages". In that specific context, it does make it easier to learn english than german or spanish. > There is some research that suggests that it is easier for adults to learn isolating languages, like English and Mandarin, than it is for adults to learn synthetic languages like German, Russian, or Arabic. English is a germanic language and hence a synthetic language. Not sure why you lumped it with Mandarin. I don't know mandarin but I've heard that spoken mandarin is easy to learn since it very regular and has fairly limited vocabulary. Their tonal system make it extremely hard for people from non-tonal languages and their writing system is notoriously difficult. > In other words, adults are better at learning lists of words than systems for constructing words. Yes. It is easier to learn english on the front end because we lack the gender+conjugation+declension. My point is that what makes english difficult is the irregularities and exceptions. > The fewer grammatical morphemes they need to learn, the faster they can reach functional fluency. In other words "simple is easier to learn"?
egeozcan 8y ago
I always say, English is easy with the basics, yet, hard to master while German exposes all the complexity from the very beginning.

FabHK 8y ago

I've seen this quote attributed to G B Shaw: "English is one of the easiest languages to speak badly, but one of the most difficult to speak well"; however, I can't find a reliable citation. At any rate, I think it captures something about English. As you say, languages like German and French take more effort to learn initially (conjugation and (in German) declension), but then there are only a few ways of expressing something correctly. English has so many synonyms with slightly different connotations and idiomatic nuances that it is hard to master.

tormeh 8y ago
But I think this is the way languages have to work if they're supposed to be spoken by non-native speakers or just spoken by a large number of geographically dispersed people. Even German is losing a lot of its initial complexity because of the last decades of immigration. This is mostly just in spoken German for now, but the written word will eventually follow. And all languages with wide geographic dispersion have a disconnect between the spoken word and the written spelling, the most extreme example being Chinese.
posterboy 8y ago
> English has so many synonyms with slightly different connotations and idiomatic nuances that it is hard to master. You imply the goal was to be precise. The crux is, what you call slightly different connotation is often enough ambiguity and the goal is to be as ambiguous as possible to be understood by as many people as possible without loosing precision, that is without mistakenly falling in the trap of a nuanced connotation. Point in case for you, my spelling correction does not know "connotated", so that may be a nuance of the English language I was not aware of. Point in case for me, connotated nuanced synonyms (or synonymous nuanced connotations) is a redundant bag of words with something for everyone, yet unspecific enough to leave me guessing, finding no difference between those my two expressions above. ...
lolc 8y ago
> English has so many synonyms with slightly different connotations and idiomatic nuances that it is hard to master. At some point I accepted that this is true for every language. First there's training basic grammar and initial vocabulary (a few months' study) and then there's mastering the long tail of idiomatic expressions (years of study). The first gives you the ability to talk about any topic. Only the second gives you effortless communication.

hannasanarion 8y ago

"simple" is not synonymous with "easy to learn". There is some research that suggests that it is easier for adults to learn isolating languages, like English and Mandarin, than it is for adults to learn synthetic languages like German, Russian, or Arabic. In other words, adults are better at learning lists of words than systems for constructing words. The fewer grammatical morphemes they need to learn, the faster they can reach functional fluency.

lolc 8y ago
Interesting! Can you recommend papers on that?
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  I learned this from a linguistic typology course a few years back, and that professor didn't use slides, so I had to do some digging on my own, and this paper seems to cover all the bases, with a nice literature review to boot: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01141/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.0114...
liftbigweights 8y ago
> "simple" is not synonymous with "easy to learn". I used simple in reference to "gender+conjugation+declension system of many languages". In that specific context, it does make it easier to learn english than german or spanish. > There is some research that suggests that it is easier for adults to learn isolating languages, like English and Mandarin, than it is for adults to learn synthetic languages like German, Russian, or Arabic. English is a germanic language and hence a synthetic language. Not sure why you lumped it with Mandarin. I don't know mandarin but I've heard that spoken mandarin is easy to learn since it very regular and has fairly limited vocabulary. Their tonal system make it extremely hard for people from non-tonal languages and their writing system is notoriously difficult. > In other words, adults are better at learning lists of words than systems for constructing words. Yes. It is easier to learn english on the front end because we lack the gender+conjugation+declension. My point is that what makes english difficult is the irregularities and exceptions. > The fewer grammatical morphemes they need to learn, the faster they can reach functional fluency. In other words "simple is easier to learn"?

egeozcan 8y ago

I always say, English is easy with the basics, yet, hard to master while German exposes all the complexity from the very beginning.