4 ms·

There is a difference between "doing other people's job" and "enabling them to learn on their own" in my experience. Explaining to someone why it is better to u

by css 8y ago

There is a difference between "doing other people's job" and "enabling them to learn on their own" in my experience. Explaining to someone why it is better to use INDEX MATCH in lieu of VLOOKUP will never ruin my productivity.

wernercd 8y ago
Explaining it to the same person for the 15th time though...
- Loughla 8y ago
  As a career educator, and ruling out learning disabilities that are not appropriately accommodated, I believe that generally means you're not doing a good job of explaining in a way the other person is capable of grasping. Blame goes both ways. And the original point still stands. It is productive to teach someone to improve their own processes.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    One difference between your experiences as an educator and the parent's experiences as an Office Excel Guy is that educators have a position of authority, and there is generally an ethos of paying attention and trying to remember what they're telling you!
    - Kagerjay 8y ago
      ^ This. Office Excel Guy is just glorified IT help desk. People don't want an explanation, don't want to learn how to use excel necessarily. They want want to push one button, and get a result. Spend longer than 5 minutes explaining it and you will be told you're wasting their time. You spend time explaining on what is essentially deaf ears, and being on call all the time
    - unsignedint 8y ago
      Educators tend to have alignment on students' skill levels too, and perhaps not so with "Excel support." It's actually easier to help someone who knows nothing about the subject. What I struggled in the past are those who think they know what they are doing, yet require help in narrower scope. They often have often accumulated bad habit, and won't listen to you because "I have been doing this way for years." Also, it's interesting to observe that many who struggle in Excel (or many of "consumer" applications) actually are struggling in basic computing skills. (e.g. can't tell difference between left and right mouse buttons, don't know how to copy files, etc.) It often result in infuriated people, pointing out that they need to learn basics of the operating system.
  - wwweston 8y ago
    This is a reasonable approach for someone whose primary role is educating others. It rapidly recedes from the realm of reasonable considerations once we're talking about someone providing informal Excel support to colleagues as an extracurricular activity.
    - Loughla 8y ago
      I disagree. You tell them how to do it. You ensure they have no questions. You have them show you that they know how. Then you destroy their work area with a hammer when they come back for more help on the same thing. (obviously humor) It's just like teaching. Source: I'm the 'excel guy' in my service area. I tell them I'll show you twice and I'll make sure you don't have any questions. Then I'll show you youtube videos. I'm not in the business of 'doing' for anyone.
    - intended 8y ago
      There’s a clear trade off in terms of time and annoyance, and getting good at teaching or communicating with different people. Being able to share mastery is a key part of being a master at a subject, which is a political and image advantage. I used my excel ability to learn how to best explain vlookup and got good at it. I did get taken advantage of early on, but I learnt how to deal with those specific types of users, and not do their work for them. In contrast to those people, there are others who genuinely respect you for your help, and then use your training to make their life and yours better. Not to mention, many excel problems are not that hard. If you know what you are doing, it’s an easy win/goodwill for you, and a major problem for someone else solved.
  - astura 8y ago
    You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Most people in this situation don't want to learn and actively tune you out. They just want you to fix their problem and if they have another problem (or the same problem again), they'll just call you over to fix it again.
  - longerthoughts 8y ago
    In my experience it's less that people don't grasp it and more that they have no interest in learning and hope to survive as parasites forever. I've worked with people who will try to stop you from teaching them almost immediately and interrupt with some nonsense that amounts to "can you just do it for me, though?". A lot of the time this happens when the task is time-sensitive and they're likely afraid of missing a deadline by trying to figure something out themselves, but you'd think they would recognize the pattern after showing up with the same frantic plea enough times.
gknoy 8y ago
This doesn't scale well with the number of people who ask for help, unless you can organize a class - which is hard to do in a way that helps people when they need help. I love talking about git workflow, and am happy to spend a half hour diagramming how your repo relates to origin, what branches mean, how pull requests and merges work, and what rebasing does. For people who don't yet grok git (or maybe just distributed source control?), this has proven to be very helpful. I typically present this information about 2x a year. However, if I had people ask me for this kind of explanation every week, or multiple times a week, it would have a much larger impact on my productivity.
- css 8y ago
  At least with Git there are _tons_ of ways to learn more. With Excel there are next to none because of the lack of developer community. There are few useful resources where someone can go to understand how they can best leverage their toolset. Excel is also notoriously opaque when it comes to debugging, so there often are not useful questions to ask Google if you don't already know or understand what you are looking for.
  - gerdesj 8y ago
    Actually there are some bloody good books on the subject. The help files and online from MS help are not too bad. Debugging: "excel debug a spreadsheet" - quite a few decent returns on page one and two. Related searches in Google gives some more hints.
    - eponeponepon 8y ago
      A shameful secret: I firmly believe that the moment I became a programmer was when I discovered Debug.Print in VBA in some elderly version of Excel (97, probably) while bodging pretty charts together for someone to print and fax to someone else. I'm willing to bet that I am not alone. Don't be too hard on Excel - some of today's clueless spreadsheet monkeys will be real bona-fide developers in fifteen years.
      - 8y ago
BWStearns 8y ago
In my experience not 1 person in 50 of people who "aren't computer people" will retain that information regardless of how much time you spend. I once worked with a guy who would come to me for everything from excel stuff to "help I can't find this email in my gmail account". I tried to stress to him that I had my own work to do (write code) but he whined that it would take me just a minute and it might take him 15 or more! This had been going on at least 5 times a day for months and so finally I angrily asked him what I couldn't do faster than him out of his tasks and why shouldn't I just do his job and get his paycheck too. The requests slowed down after that. Being the one technical person available is almost always a shit experience.
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  Show him how to use Excel to make an invoice for your time he's wasting.
  - BWStearns 8y ago
    Savage. Wish I had thought of that.
skrebbel 8y ago
Thanks! I didn't know about INDEX and MATCH, and VLOOKUP always bothered me.

by css 8y ago

wernercd 8y ago

Explaining it to the same person for the 15th time though...

Loughla 8y ago
As a career educator, and ruling out learning disabilities that are not appropriately accommodated, I believe that generally means you're not doing a good job of explaining in a way the other person is capable of grasping. Blame goes both ways. And the original point still stands. It is productive to teach someone to improve their own processes.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  One difference between your experiences as an educator and the parent's experiences as an Office Excel Guy is that educators have a position of authority, and there is generally an ethos of paying attention and trying to remember what they're telling you!
  - Kagerjay 8y ago
    ^ This. Office Excel Guy is just glorified IT help desk. People don't want an explanation, don't want to learn how to use excel necessarily. They want want to push one button, and get a result. Spend longer than 5 minutes explaining it and you will be told you're wasting their time. You spend time explaining on what is essentially deaf ears, and being on call all the time
  - unsignedint 8y ago
    Educators tend to have alignment on students' skill levels too, and perhaps not so with "Excel support." It's actually easier to help someone who knows nothing about the subject. What I struggled in the past are those who think they know what they are doing, yet require help in narrower scope. They often have often accumulated bad habit, and won't listen to you because "I have been doing this way for years." Also, it's interesting to observe that many who struggle in Excel (or many of "consumer" applications) actually are struggling in basic computing skills. (e.g. can't tell difference between left and right mouse buttons, don't know how to copy files, etc.) It often result in infuriated people, pointing out that they need to learn basics of the operating system.
- wwweston 8y ago
  This is a reasonable approach for someone whose primary role is educating others. It rapidly recedes from the realm of reasonable considerations once we're talking about someone providing informal Excel support to colleagues as an extracurricular activity.
  - Loughla 8y ago
    I disagree. You tell them how to do it. You ensure they have no questions. You have them show you that they know how. Then you destroy their work area with a hammer when they come back for more help on the same thing. (obviously humor) It's just like teaching. Source: I'm the 'excel guy' in my service area. I tell them I'll show you twice and I'll make sure you don't have any questions. Then I'll show you youtube videos. I'm not in the business of 'doing' for anyone.
  - intended 8y ago
    There’s a clear trade off in terms of time and annoyance, and getting good at teaching or communicating with different people. Being able to share mastery is a key part of being a master at a subject, which is a political and image advantage. I used my excel ability to learn how to best explain vlookup and got good at it. I did get taken advantage of early on, but I learnt how to deal with those specific types of users, and not do their work for them. In contrast to those people, there are others who genuinely respect you for your help, and then use your training to make their life and yours better. Not to mention, many excel problems are not that hard. If you know what you are doing, it’s an easy win/goodwill for you, and a major problem for someone else solved.
- astura 8y ago
  You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Most people in this situation don't want to learn and actively tune you out. They just want you to fix their problem and if they have another problem (or the same problem again), they'll just call you over to fix it again.
- longerthoughts 8y ago
  In my experience it's less that people don't grasp it and more that they have no interest in learning and hope to survive as parasites forever. I've worked with people who will try to stop you from teaching them almost immediately and interrupt with some nonsense that amounts to "can you just do it for me, though?". A lot of the time this happens when the task is time-sensitive and they're likely afraid of missing a deadline by trying to figure something out themselves, but you'd think they would recognize the pattern after showing up with the same frantic plea enough times.

gknoy 8y ago

This doesn't scale well with the number of people who ask for help, unless you can organize a class - which is hard to do in a way that helps people when they need help. I love talking about git workflow, and am happy to spend a half hour diagramming how your repo relates to origin, what branches mean, how pull requests and merges work, and what rebasing does. For people who don't yet grok git (or maybe just distributed source control?), this has proven to be very helpful. I typically present this information about 2x a year. However, if I had people ask me for this kind of explanation every week, or multiple times a week, it would have a much larger impact on my productivity.

css 8y ago
At least with Git there are _tons_ of ways to learn more. With Excel there are next to none because of the lack of developer community. There are few useful resources where someone can go to understand how they can best leverage their toolset. Excel is also notoriously opaque when it comes to debugging, so there often are not useful questions to ask Google if you don't already know or understand what you are looking for.
- gerdesj 8y ago
  Actually there are some bloody good books on the subject. The help files and online from MS help are not too bad. Debugging: "excel debug a spreadsheet" - quite a few decent returns on page one and two. Related searches in Google gives some more hints.
  - eponeponepon 8y ago
    A shameful secret: I firmly believe that the moment I became a programmer was when I discovered Debug.Print in VBA in some elderly version of Excel (97, probably) while bodging pretty charts together for someone to print and fax to someone else. I'm willing to bet that I am not alone. Don't be too hard on Excel - some of today's clueless spreadsheet monkeys will be real bona-fide developers in fifteen years.
    - 8y ago

BWStearns 8y ago

In my experience not 1 person in 50 of people who "aren't computer people" will retain that information regardless of how much time you spend. I once worked with a guy who would come to me for everything from excel stuff to "help I can't find this email in my gmail account". I tried to stress to him that I had my own work to do (write code) but he whined that it would take me just a minute and it might take him 15 or more! This had been going on at least 5 times a day for months and so finally I angrily asked him what I couldn't do faster than him out of his tasks and why shouldn't I just do his job and get his paycheck too. The requests slowed down after that. Being the one technical person available is almost always a shit experience.

DonHopkins 8y ago
Show him how to use Excel to make an invoice for your time he's wasting.
- BWStearns 8y ago
  Savage. Wish I had thought of that.

skrebbel 8y ago

Thanks! I didn't know about INDEX and MATCH, and VLOOKUP always bothered me.