4 ms·

I know I'm going to sound like a microsoft employee or apologist, but I really have no skin in the game. I want windows to be better, but I think people are jus

I know I'm going to sound like a microsoft employee or apologist, but I really have no skin in the game. I want windows to be better, but I think people are just going to far with minor gripes. Windows 10 has been the least disruptive Windows OS I've ever used. Maybe it's because I don't need to mess around with many settings, but I have had exactly 0 problems. On a clean install I used O&O Shutup 10, change my mouse settings, delete the 6-10 icons in the start menu that I don't want, and I've pretty much been good since beta (using O&O and making sure my drivers are good after every major update). I think the biggest disruption I remember was when they changed the audio settings completely, but that change was necessary (windows audio settings sucked) and is actually a pretty good change. And I think people are not remembering just how many problems there were with windows 7/XP. Like the EXACT same problems people are complaining about now. Name a problem you're experiencing I can find a forum thread about someone having it on almost any version of Windows OS. And quite often many distros of linux as well.

fhood 8y ago
Windows 7 and XP were not good, people see XP through nostalgia goggles and Windows 7 is just prettier XP. Windows 10 is easily my favorite of the three. I wish I understood windows better though. The issues I run into with unix machines always seem more fixable, because I find the solutions and approaches more intuitive. Windows remains a black box to me.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > Windows 7 is just prettier XP Windows 7 has a completely revamped driver model and network stack compared to XP. They aren't really that alike.
  - fhood 8y ago
    Sorry, I meant that they looked and felt quite similar to the user.
- ragequitta 8y ago
  I agree that sometimes Windows can be puzzling. Though I think most of the 'black box' problems I've encountered in windows have been my own damn fault. I notice people try and "fine tune" it too much. I used to be this way too, because it used to be necessary. It's really not anymore IMO. Yes you want to turn off some things (O&O makes a good list, and backs everything up before changing stuff, which is why I use it) but 99.9999% of users don't have any reason to go into the registry for instance. And if you really care about the 3MB and 0 resources you're saving by tweaking the features/apps/etc installed be VERY careful. Do not trust random 'security' and 'debloat' scripts to not completely mess up your OS. Even if you understand the script, you may not understand that uninstalling X causes Y problem. I really do think win10 is hated on quite a bit because people have caused their own issues thinking they know more than they do.
- conradfr 8y ago
  How are they "not good"? You can still find XP machines in a lot of places, a 17 years old OS. And what's bad about Windows 7? My 2011 laptop is still running the original Windows 7 installation without any problems and I don't even remember the last time my Windows 7 desktop has crashed or caused me any trouble. Except when Windows Update decides to reboot by itself ... Mostly my only gripe is that Docker on Windows 7 is legacy.
  - ragequitta 8y ago
    XP was a very hot mess back in the day. It grew to be a passable OS, but if you were around IT when it was new you know what a nightmare it was. I still have nightmares about taking calls about the blaster worm. The problems people have with windows 10 aren't even close in scope to the ones we had with XP.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      That's true. IIRC XP wasn't really good until sometime after SP2 (which caused its own headaches).
  - ethelward 8y ago
    You can still find Windows 3.11 in some places. Longevity is not necessarily linked to quality
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> Windows 10 has been the least disruptive Windows OS I've ever used. As someone who used to like Windows, you must be living in some alternate reality. I can't tall you the number of things that routinely break in Win10 and then cannot be fixed without an in-place upgrade. Do a search for "Windows 10 start menu doesn't work". That one has happened to me a number of times and none of the "helpful" suggestions from MS ever work except reinstalling the entire OS.
- ragequitta 8y ago
  Have you had this problem on your computer before installing any other software? The problem with most common windows issues is they have absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft. When you have millions of compatible software packages that people install willy nilly, 'debloat' and 'super security' scripts that people seem to think are necessary to save 0 MB of RAM and 3 MB of hard drive space, and just a general population of people who like to 'HARDCORE TWEAK' their OS it's impossible to not run into millions of issues. As for the problem you've been experiencing maybe this will work? https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/7olecs/start_menutaskbar_not_working/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/7olecs/start_men...
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    Last time I ran into this problem it was immediately after an in-place upgrade from the Media Creation Utility, because the feature update failed and this was my only recourse. As I expected, nothing helped and I had to do a clean install. I'm not a hardcore Windows tweaker, most of the applications I use at work are either portable[0], or made by Microsoft. I don't believe I've tried the method outlined in that post, I'll keep it in mind for the inevitable next time that this occurs. Though it does force one to wonder WTF is wrong with Microsoft that they keep suggesting steps that don't work and then reinstallation, while some random internet has to provide the actual solution in the comments[1]. That seems to happen way too often. [0] Because it's the right way to distribute and manage applications. Case in point: all I had to do was point a toolbar at my Portable Apps folder and as far as my workflow was concerned it was like nothing had ever happened. [1] Somebody aught to start a charity that seeks out these heroes and buys them beer on behalf of all the people they've saved from pulling their hair out.
wlll 8y ago
> minor gripes. This last update deleted people's data. Permanently. I have a windows 10 machine (for games), I installed it myself so it's got no pre-loaded shit, and yet it still bothers me about stuff. Onedrive, cortana, etc. etc. The UI is shitty like someone in MS has gone ERMAHGERD TERBLERTS and dumped a load of swipy touch screen UI into it, UI that is just frustrating on a normal regular computer. Also, I shouldn't have to fix the OS right after install. As far as I remember the only customisation I did to my mac was to switch back to the non-wierd scrolling direction. Maybe that and turning on dock hiding.
- ragequitta 8y ago
  Do you know how many updates have deleted some people's data permanently? It was one of the top call drivers almost every update back in windows XP days. There's a good reason that backup ALL important files is a mantra among people who know what they're doing. No matter the OS, no matter the hardware, stuff WILL get deleted. The UI is fine. Don't use onedrive or cortana, turned them off with one click and they've been off now for years. Not sure how 1 click every few years is a problem. And no idea what you mean about the swipey stuff (I use a mouse? I only click things? idk) but yes tablets are very popular these days and microsoft does have to accommodate them. Of course? And what do you mean by fix the OS? I use O&O because I like what it does, but when I use a Win10 computer at work or at school it's not a big deal that it's not done. I don't feel like I'm working on a 'broken' OS out of the box. And if you're ever upset about Candy Crush advertisements on Win10..... try installing ANY app on MacOS (which heavily relies on the app store unlike win10) and see how many advertisements you run into before you're done. Yes everything you've mentioned does seem like a rather minor gripe. Like some of them (onedrive and cortana) literally 1 click gripes.
  - SECProto 8y ago
    Not OP but: The "Try OneDrive!" And XBox Live shortcuts (and others maybe) in my start menu cannot be removed without using the command line. Deleting users data after an update which they have no choice but to install (and not even a choice of when to install it) is, in fact, different than losing data after a user chooses to install an update. Shrugging and saying "they should've had a backup" is the epitome of entitled. The only version of Windows 10 that performs correctly for a power user is the LTSB. Which is only officially available for large companies. You can actually control what the OS does, and when it does it (same as every other professional windows OS that I used). And saying that having advertisements in the start menu out of the box isn't bad because a competitor has ads during installation... I don't know what to say. I guess, I thought I was allowed to want my OS to get better over time? Compared to previous versions, as well as competitors. There was quite a fuss about Xiaomi having ads in the settings app, pretty similar.
infogulch 8y ago
Side note, thanks for mentioning O&O ShutUp 10 [1] this is the first time I've heard of it and it seems pretty great. You can turn off many of the telemetry and auto update 'features' and it even remembers what settings you chose and can re-apply them after an update that resets them. Honestly I'm ok with auto updates for the most part, but I'm trying to improve my privacy on devices that I use. > O&O ShutUp10 is entirely free and does not have to be installed – it can be simply run directly and immediately on your PC. And it will not install or download retrospectively unwanted or unnecessary software [1]: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

fhood 8y ago

Windows 7 and XP were not good, people see XP through nostalgia goggles and Windows 7 is just prettier XP. Windows 10 is easily my favorite of the three. I wish I understood windows better though. The issues I run into with unix machines always seem more fixable, because I find the solutions and approaches more intuitive. Windows remains a black box to me.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> Windows 7 is just prettier XP Windows 7 has a completely revamped driver model and network stack compared to XP. They aren't really that alike.
- fhood 8y ago
  Sorry, I meant that they looked and felt quite similar to the user.
ragequitta 8y ago
I agree that sometimes Windows can be puzzling. Though I think most of the 'black box' problems I've encountered in windows have been my own damn fault. I notice people try and "fine tune" it too much. I used to be this way too, because it used to be necessary. It's really not anymore IMO. Yes you want to turn off some things (O&O makes a good list, and backs everything up before changing stuff, which is why I use it) but 99.9999% of users don't have any reason to go into the registry for instance. And if you really care about the 3MB and 0 resources you're saving by tweaking the features/apps/etc installed be VERY careful. Do not trust random 'security' and 'debloat' scripts to not completely mess up your OS. Even if you understand the script, you may not understand that uninstalling X causes Y problem. I really do think win10 is hated on quite a bit because people have caused their own issues thinking they know more than they do.
conradfr 8y ago
How are they "not good"? You can still find XP machines in a lot of places, a 17 years old OS. And what's bad about Windows 7? My 2011 laptop is still running the original Windows 7 installation without any problems and I don't even remember the last time my Windows 7 desktop has crashed or caused me any trouble. Except when Windows Update decides to reboot by itself ... Mostly my only gripe is that Docker on Windows 7 is legacy.
- ragequitta 8y ago
  XP was a very hot mess back in the day. It grew to be a passable OS, but if you were around IT when it was new you know what a nightmare it was. I still have nightmares about taking calls about the blaster worm. The problems people have with windows 10 aren't even close in scope to the ones we had with XP.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    That's true. IIRC XP wasn't really good until sometime after SP2 (which caused its own headaches).
- ethelward 8y ago
  You can still find Windows 3.11 in some places. Longevity is not necessarily linked to quality

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> Windows 10 has been the least disruptive Windows OS I've ever used. As someone who used to like Windows, you must be living in some alternate reality. I can't tall you the number of things that routinely break in Win10 and then cannot be fixed without an in-place upgrade. Do a search for "Windows 10 start menu doesn't work". That one has happened to me a number of times and none of the "helpful" suggestions from MS ever work except reinstalling the entire OS.

ragequitta 8y ago
Have you had this problem on your computer before installing any other software? The problem with most common windows issues is they have absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft. When you have millions of compatible software packages that people install willy nilly, 'debloat' and 'super security' scripts that people seem to think are necessary to save 0 MB of RAM and 3 MB of hard drive space, and just a general population of people who like to 'HARDCORE TWEAK' their OS it's impossible to not run into millions of issues. As for the problem you've been experiencing maybe this will work? https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/7olecs/start_menutaskbar_not_working/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/7olecs/start_men...
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  Last time I ran into this problem it was immediately after an in-place upgrade from the Media Creation Utility, because the feature update failed and this was my only recourse. As I expected, nothing helped and I had to do a clean install. I'm not a hardcore Windows tweaker, most of the applications I use at work are either portable[0], or made by Microsoft. I don't believe I've tried the method outlined in that post, I'll keep it in mind for the inevitable next time that this occurs. Though it does force one to wonder WTF is wrong with Microsoft that they keep suggesting steps that don't work and then reinstallation, while some random internet has to provide the actual solution in the comments[1]. That seems to happen way too often. [0] Because it's the right way to distribute and manage applications. Case in point: all I had to do was point a toolbar at my Portable Apps folder and as far as my workflow was concerned it was like nothing had ever happened. [1] Somebody aught to start a charity that seeks out these heroes and buys them beer on behalf of all the people they've saved from pulling their hair out.

wlll 8y ago

> minor gripes. This last update deleted people's data. Permanently. I have a windows 10 machine (for games), I installed it myself so it's got no pre-loaded shit, and yet it still bothers me about stuff. Onedrive, cortana, etc. etc. The UI is shitty like someone in MS has gone ERMAHGERD TERBLERTS and dumped a load of swipy touch screen UI into it, UI that is just frustrating on a normal regular computer. Also, I shouldn't have to fix the OS right after install. As far as I remember the only customisation I did to my mac was to switch back to the non-wierd scrolling direction. Maybe that and turning on dock hiding.

ragequitta 8y ago
Do you know how many updates have deleted some people's data permanently? It was one of the top call drivers almost every update back in windows XP days. There's a good reason that backup ALL important files is a mantra among people who know what they're doing. No matter the OS, no matter the hardware, stuff WILL get deleted. The UI is fine. Don't use onedrive or cortana, turned them off with one click and they've been off now for years. Not sure how 1 click every few years is a problem. And no idea what you mean about the swipey stuff (I use a mouse? I only click things? idk) but yes tablets are very popular these days and microsoft does have to accommodate them. Of course? And what do you mean by fix the OS? I use O&O because I like what it does, but when I use a Win10 computer at work or at school it's not a big deal that it's not done. I don't feel like I'm working on a 'broken' OS out of the box. And if you're ever upset about Candy Crush advertisements on Win10..... try installing ANY app on MacOS (which heavily relies on the app store unlike win10) and see how many advertisements you run into before you're done. Yes everything you've mentioned does seem like a rather minor gripe. Like some of them (onedrive and cortana) literally 1 click gripes.
- SECProto 8y ago
  Not OP but: The "Try OneDrive!" And XBox Live shortcuts (and others maybe) in my start menu cannot be removed without using the command line. Deleting users data after an update which they have no choice but to install (and not even a choice of when to install it) is, in fact, different than losing data after a user chooses to install an update. Shrugging and saying "they should've had a backup" is the epitome of entitled. The only version of Windows 10 that performs correctly for a power user is the LTSB. Which is only officially available for large companies. You can actually control what the OS does, and when it does it (same as every other professional windows OS that I used). And saying that having advertisements in the start menu out of the box isn't bad because a competitor has ads during installation... I don't know what to say. I guess, I thought I was allowed to want my OS to get better over time? Compared to previous versions, as well as competitors. There was quite a fuss about Xiaomi having ads in the settings app, pretty similar.

infogulch 8y ago

Side note, thanks for mentioning O&O ShutUp 10 [1] this is the first time I've heard of it and it seems pretty great. You can turn off many of the telemetry and auto update 'features' and it even remembers what settings you chose and can re-apply them after an update that resets them. Honestly I'm ok with auto updates for the most part, but I'm trying to improve my privacy on devices that I use. > O&O ShutUp10 is entirely free and does not have to be installed – it can be simply run directly and immediately on your PC. And it will not install or download retrospectively unwanted or unnecessary software [1]: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10