8 ms·

I guess I don't totally understand how a public official can "allegedly" disappear. Doesn't he have job responsibilities? It's been a week.

emodendroket 8y ago
I guess the question is whether he's gone off somewhere of his own volition or somehow ended up dead or been apprehended or... who knows what else.
- cm2187 8y ago
  Based on the history of other people disappearing in China, I would speculate that he must rather have been caught on some anti-corruption/anti-tax evasion campaign of some sort.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    Or at least accused of same. Which doesn't seem to be different in Chinese courts.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Based on what deep knowledge of Chinese courts cases?
      - emodendroket 8y ago
        I wish people would give more examples of what they're talking about or even citations before making sweeping blanket statements about the character of the Chinese state in discussions here. Many of their accusations may even be well founded, but how would I know? I would not want to live under CCP rule, but it seems like skepticism goes out the window and people will believe anything if the story is about China.
        simplecomplex 8y ago
        Because it’s common knowledge China is a communist dictatorship that engages in censorship, kidnapping, torture, forced confessions of enemies of the party. Just look at the history of the last 100 years and the history of the CCP. Or talk to anyone who is Chinese and not brainwashed.
        emodendroket 8y ago
        Things that you believe because it is "common knowledge" that the actors are evil are most in need of examination.
        simplecomplex 8y ago
        Go ask any teacher in any history department in any decent school anywhere in the world (except China) and they will be happy to explain. Just like it’s common knowledge the USA is a democracy, not a one party dictatorship. The Chinese communist revolution is relatively recent history. Or talk to any Chinese exiles/dissidents living in the US. Or any Taiwanese person.
        emodendroket 8y ago
        I think this is a poor yardstick that leads to people believing total falsehoods. Show me facts, not a morality play.
        simplecomplex 8y ago
        I’m going to assume you’re young and still learning about world history for the last 100 years, or a CCP shill/citizen whose been brainwashed with revisionist history. If you actually don’t know, I suggest starting with the history of the cultural revolution: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents
      - angry_octet 8y ago
        It is notorious that they convict 99.9% of people charged. http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/16/china_conviction_rate_near_100_percent/ http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/16/china_conviction_rate_near...
        emodendroket 8y ago
        Japan's is about the same.
        angry_octet 8y ago
        They also have a poor system of justice. They similarly have high rates of confession.
        staunch 8y ago
        "In Japan, the criminal justice system has a conviction rate that exceeds 99%, including guilty plea cases. This has been attributed to low prosecutorial budgets impelling understaffed prosecutors to bring only the most obviously guilty defendants to trial." "In Canada, the national conviction rate is about 97%. This does not include cases in which the charges are dropped, which comprise about one-third of criminal cases. Absent Quebec, the province with the lowest conviction rate, the figure is 99%." "In China, the justice system has a Conviction rate of about 99.9%. This has been attributed to the use of torture and other coercive measures to extract confessions and pressure on courts and prosecutors." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
      - ethbro 8y ago
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/china-scored-99-9-percent-conviction-rate-last-year/?utm_term=.27f85e486d5c https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1... Either their justice system has incredibly low false positives (99% of people charged are provably guilty), or it's rigged.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Either their justice system has incredibly low false positives (99% of people charged are provably guilty), or it's rigged. Or their prosecution standards are much higher before the cases come to courts...
        emodendroket 8y ago
        If it's anything like Japan the cops just torture suspects into confessing
        ethbro 8y ago
        That's another possibility. Although I'd still question the fundamental ability of any bureaucracy to be correct 99%+ of the time. Given correlations that high, one almost suspects the courts and government aren't independent. https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/china/criminal-law-system#arrest https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/china/criminal-la... Highlights: - 1-7 days arrest and detention without a formal arrest filed (up to 37 days in some cases) - Up to 13.5 months detention without formal charges filed This is contrast to the US 72-hour rule & writ of habeas corpus avenue. Objectively, I feel it's merited to say the Chinese judicial system is inefficient, unjust, and inhumane... at best.
  - toyg 8y ago
    You forgot quotes around the “anti” definitions. Tax evasion in China is often the equivalent of “counter-revolutionary activities” under Stalin: the blanket accusation to frame whoever has fallen from favour and has to be purged.
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      I don't know if I'd say that. For instance, the Fan Bingbing case made a splash, but there's little doubt she was actually evading her taxes. The only reason people are surprised is that "everyone" is evading taxes and has been able to get away with it.
    - 794CD01 8y ago
      Is there anyone who the Chinese government punished for tax evasion who turned out to be not cheating on their taxes? Selective enforcement is one thing. Fabricating charges is worse.
      - emodendroket 8y ago
        And selective, exemplary enforcement is not a phenomenon unknown outside of China.
      - toyg 8y ago
        Potato, potato. In the USSR, anything you said could be interpreted as anti-revolutionary if it criticised the boss in any way; and plenty of people were privately criticising, but it was brought up only against the ones who had to be purged. Similarly, in China today, everyone who is anyone in the apparatus is cheating taxes in some way, but it's brought up only if they become a problem for the leadership for some other reason.
        emodendroket 8y ago
        And here in the US, people routinely violate rules about registering as a foreign agent and have for a long time, but suddenly it's an issue and we lock up Maria Butina for what seem like mostly political reasons. Our tax fraud cases are also, I'd suspect, getting only a fraction of the tax cheats.
pastor_elm 8y ago
The Chinese are known to detain people indefinitely. Hong Kong Booksellers are a great example[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...

emodendroket 8y ago

I guess the question is whether he's gone off somewhere of his own volition or somehow ended up dead or been apprehended or... who knows what else.

cm2187 8y ago
Based on the history of other people disappearing in China, I would speculate that he must rather have been caught on some anti-corruption/anti-tax evasion campaign of some sort.
- ethbro 8y ago
  Or at least accused of same. Which doesn't seem to be different in Chinese courts.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Based on what deep knowledge of Chinese courts cases?
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      I wish people would give more examples of what they're talking about or even citations before making sweeping blanket statements about the character of the Chinese state in discussions here. Many of their accusations may even be well founded, but how would I know? I would not want to live under CCP rule, but it seems like skepticism goes out the window and people will believe anything if the story is about China.
      - simplecomplex 8y ago
        Because it’s common knowledge China is a communist dictatorship that engages in censorship, kidnapping, torture, forced confessions of enemies of the party. Just look at the history of the last 100 years and the history of the CCP. Or talk to anyone who is Chinese and not brainwashed.
        emodendroket 8y ago
        Things that you believe because it is "common knowledge" that the actors are evil are most in need of examination.
        simplecomplex 8y ago
        Go ask any teacher in any history department in any decent school anywhere in the world (except China) and they will be happy to explain. Just like it’s common knowledge the USA is a democracy, not a one party dictatorship. The Chinese communist revolution is relatively recent history. Or talk to any Chinese exiles/dissidents living in the US. Or any Taiwanese person.
        emodendroket 8y ago
        I think this is a poor yardstick that leads to people believing total falsehoods. Show me facts, not a morality play.
        simplecomplex 8y ago
        I’m going to assume you’re young and still learning about world history for the last 100 years, or a CCP shill/citizen whose been brainwashed with revisionist history. If you actually don’t know, I suggest starting with the history of the cultural revolution: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents
    - angry_octet 8y ago
      It is notorious that they convict 99.9% of people charged. http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/16/china_conviction_rate_near_100_percent/ http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/16/china_conviction_rate_near...
      - emodendroket 8y ago
        Japan's is about the same.
        angry_octet 8y ago
        They also have a poor system of justice. They similarly have high rates of confession.
        staunch 8y ago
        "In Japan, the criminal justice system has a conviction rate that exceeds 99%, including guilty plea cases. This has been attributed to low prosecutorial budgets impelling understaffed prosecutors to bring only the most obviously guilty defendants to trial." "In Canada, the national conviction rate is about 97%. This does not include cases in which the charges are dropped, which comprise about one-third of criminal cases. Absent Quebec, the province with the lowest conviction rate, the figure is 99%." "In China, the justice system has a Conviction rate of about 99.9%. This has been attributed to the use of torture and other coercive measures to extract confessions and pressure on courts and prosecutors." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
    - ethbro 8y ago
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/china-scored-99-9-percent-conviction-rate-last-year/?utm_term=.27f85e486d5c https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1... Either their justice system has incredibly low false positives (99% of people charged are provably guilty), or it's rigged.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >Either their justice system has incredibly low false positives (99% of people charged are provably guilty), or it's rigged. Or their prosecution standards are much higher before the cases come to courts...
        emodendroket 8y ago
        If it's anything like Japan the cops just torture suspects into confessing
        ethbro 8y ago
        That's another possibility. Although I'd still question the fundamental ability of any bureaucracy to be correct 99%+ of the time. Given correlations that high, one almost suspects the courts and government aren't independent. https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/china/criminal-law-system#arrest https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/china/criminal-la... Highlights: - 1-7 days arrest and detention without a formal arrest filed (up to 37 days in some cases) - Up to 13.5 months detention without formal charges filed This is contrast to the US 72-hour rule & writ of habeas corpus avenue. Objectively, I feel it's merited to say the Chinese judicial system is inefficient, unjust, and inhumane... at best.
- toyg 8y ago
  You forgot quotes around the “anti” definitions. Tax evasion in China is often the equivalent of “counter-revolutionary activities” under Stalin: the blanket accusation to frame whoever has fallen from favour and has to be purged.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    I don't know if I'd say that. For instance, the Fan Bingbing case made a splash, but there's little doubt she was actually evading her taxes. The only reason people are surprised is that "everyone" is evading taxes and has been able to get away with it.
  - 794CD01 8y ago
    Is there anyone who the Chinese government punished for tax evasion who turned out to be not cheating on their taxes? Selective enforcement is one thing. Fabricating charges is worse.
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      And selective, exemplary enforcement is not a phenomenon unknown outside of China.
    - toyg 8y ago
      Potato, potato. In the USSR, anything you said could be interpreted as anti-revolutionary if it criticised the boss in any way; and plenty of people were privately criticising, but it was brought up only against the ones who had to be purged. Similarly, in China today, everyone who is anyone in the apparatus is cheating taxes in some way, but it's brought up only if they become a problem for the leadership for some other reason.
      - emodendroket 8y ago
        And here in the US, people routinely violate rules about registering as a foreign agent and have for a long time, but suddenly it's an issue and we lock up Maria Butina for what seem like mostly political reasons. Our tax fraud cases are also, I'd suspect, getting only a fraction of the tax cheats.

pastor_elm 8y ago

The Chinese are known to detain people indefinitely. Hong Kong Booksellers are a great example[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...