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Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple products have started becoming inaccessible to me too. From what I understand they wan

Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple products have started becoming inaccessible to me too. From what I understand they want to protect their brand by building quality and repairing with quality as well. Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do. A week ago I was in the apple store in London, a guy next to me bought one of their new flagships through o2 and the phone's buttons weren't usable, he was told by o2 he has to wait 3 weeks on a replacement, so he tried his luck by going to the apple store. He was told that there is nothing they can do and that he has to do it through o2, which I personally find it appalling, having paid a big chunk of money and getting a defective product, which is under warranty and all that and being told that they can't fix it or replace it and you have to go through the person you bought it from to replace it. I felt like their service isn't going to do any justice to me if anything is to happen to my iphone, watch, airpods, macbook. Not to say that i live in Greece as well where the waiting times to get something repaired is around 3 weeks as well, I managed to fix my own keyboard on my mac watching youtube videos and ordering the toolkit from amazon in 2 hours... they wanted 3 weeks, and looking at it, to an experienced engineer with the right tools would take about 2 mins to fix it. They need to invest in their repairs worldwide if they want to keep their customer base imho.

DubiousPusher 8y ago
I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is incorrect. > Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do. That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us. Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.
- bionoid 8y ago
  > Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform. Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a right to reverse-engineer software if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year. Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian), https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42 https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42
  - nojvek 8y ago
    The way I see it US govt won’t enact a law that makes their big businesses worse off (at-least) the current ones. They brag about how well off the top companies are, valued at trillions and that’s their measuring stick. But as a consumer, the govt is not for you. If you want repairability, don’t buy from Apple. There is a reason why Apple as a brand is not popular in places where they don’t have Apple stores and good support.
- consp 8y ago
  > That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us. As far as I know, this is not allowed in most of the EU if you bought the device outright. On the other hand: The customer probably bought the phone with a O2 combination contract in which case it is a phone-on-a-loan (as in banking). In that case the provider is responsible as seller and loan provider, and the Apple store employee is correct to refuse unless O2 has a direct servicing agreement with the Apple store. If he bought it outright (even through O2) and O2 doesn't provide reasonable service (missing your phone for three weeks isn't reasonable) he can request repair within warranty at the factory but will most likely have to pay for it himself and then send the repair cost to O2 (which they will argue against doing in order to avoid paying). The "factory" can refuse to do so and send the customer back to the seller in which case he/she should argue for a quick repair or stop the contract with reimbursement. It's a complicated problem, but the Apple store was most likely correct in this case.
  - DubiousPusher 8y ago
    I'm not commenting on the story the OP was sharing here. I'm commenting on the first broad observation they made. They implied that the main issue with Apple locking out repairs on their devices was that Apple themselves could not service all potential necessary repairs because they did not have the scale to do so. But I say there's a problem way before we get to whether or not Apple can meet the demand for repairs worldwide. I don't like companies that intentionally attempt to prevent people from repairing, hacking or modifying things. I don't like the term "Right to Repair" because it sounds kind of silly. But I recognize that the industrial revolution, the electronics boom, the invention of the personal computer, desktop software boom and the rise internet were all driven in part by people who tore other people's stuff apart, hacked it, modified it and reinvented it. Art gets so much credit in terms of being an uplifting passtime but we massively overlook the joy of learning how things work, changing them and sharing them. Anyone who stands in the way of that has lost the love of that. They've lost their passion and I don't really want to pay for their products.
simonh 8y ago
This is due to liability law. O2 is liable for the condition fo the phone they sold you, but if Apple take on the repair they adopt liability. Apple has a contract with O2 to repair the phone, not with you whom they don't have a contractual relationship with. They can't just waive that contractual relationship for every singe purchaser of Apple products from third parties world wide, it would open them up to a lot of risk. Suppose O2 screwed up warehousing and damaged a whole batch of iPhones somehow and then sold them to customers, Apple would end up liable for that. If you want a contractual relationship with Apple, just buy the phone from Apple.
- sundvor 8y ago
  I got an S8+ from Samsung on release via Telstra in Australia. There was an issue with the screen, so I took it to Samsung in Melbourne Central. They confirmed the issue and were happy to do an on the spot replacement if Telstra didn't have any left in their nearby store - for admin reasons it was just a bit better to do that. Telstra didn't, so I took Samsung up on their offer - very happy to have it resolved straight away. None of the BS as in the GP post with Apple.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    You're in Australia, OP's anecdote is in the UK. Different laws apply in different countries.
    - sundvor 8y ago
      I'm not sure if Samsung as the manufacturer was legally obliged to replace a device that I bought from a different supplier. I feel it would be well in their rights to tell me to just go to Telstra. However as a combined service center / sales outlet they had a policy to replace DOA units as long as it was a genuine Australian, non grey import. To be honest they just appear genuinely interested in looking after their customers and were just as excited as myself about the new release. I had a USB port issue with the S6 Edge phone prior to my S8+ and the was also resolved quickly by a repair, ended up being on the day with a free loaner. Service like that has pretty much guaranteed I'll stay with Samsung products for the foreseeable future (I upgrade every two years).
LoSboccacc 8y ago
> repairing with quality relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=703s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=703s
the_clarence 8y ago
Why would you buy a phone through O2? Just go to an Apple Store and buy it directly.
- consp 8y ago
  Most likely: phone-on-a-loan contracts. You pay per month instead of the insane cost outright.
danpalmer 8y ago
If it’s added as “Dead on Arrival” then O2 would have to give him a replacement right there. If it was classed as breaking after arrival due to a manufacturing defect then yep it’s up to O2 to do their repair process which sounds ridiculously long, but normal for phone companies. He would essentially be not accepting the phone, rather than accepting and returning. The phone companies might try to push him into the return process so that they can sell the phone that would have replaced it to another customer, but they aren’t supposed to, and will change their mind when you push back and tell them your rights. This is one of the reasons why I only buy my Apple products from Apple, their service is far better than this, although has declined in recent years.
kirykl 8y ago
I dont know if its different in UK but in US the warranty is provided by Apple and the Apple Store would repair any Apple product as long as an authorized retailer sold it
zelon88 8y ago
They need to invest in making their hardware documented and accessible. Obviously their secrecy isn't doing their customers any favors regardless of how you look at it. What's more valuable to the consumer? A device that doesn't work and cannot reasonably be repaired or a device that was repaired with knock off parts and inexperienced labor that still gets the job done? To take an adage from farmers; "The best machine is one that can perform it's duties despite it's condition."

DubiousPusher 8y ago

I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is incorrect. > Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do. That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us. Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.

bionoid 8y ago
> Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform. Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a right to reverse-engineer software if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year. Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian), https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42 https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42
- nojvek 8y ago
  The way I see it US govt won’t enact a law that makes their big businesses worse off (at-least) the current ones. They brag about how well off the top companies are, valued at trillions and that’s their measuring stick. But as a consumer, the govt is not for you. If you want repairability, don’t buy from Apple. There is a reason why Apple as a brand is not popular in places where they don’t have Apple stores and good support.
consp 8y ago
> That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us. As far as I know, this is not allowed in most of the EU if you bought the device outright. On the other hand: The customer probably bought the phone with a O2 combination contract in which case it is a phone-on-a-loan (as in banking). In that case the provider is responsible as seller and loan provider, and the Apple store employee is correct to refuse unless O2 has a direct servicing agreement with the Apple store. If he bought it outright (even through O2) and O2 doesn't provide reasonable service (missing your phone for three weeks isn't reasonable) he can request repair within warranty at the factory but will most likely have to pay for it himself and then send the repair cost to O2 (which they will argue against doing in order to avoid paying). The "factory" can refuse to do so and send the customer back to the seller in which case he/she should argue for a quick repair or stop the contract with reimbursement. It's a complicated problem, but the Apple store was most likely correct in this case.
- DubiousPusher 8y ago
  I'm not commenting on the story the OP was sharing here. I'm commenting on the first broad observation they made. They implied that the main issue with Apple locking out repairs on their devices was that Apple themselves could not service all potential necessary repairs because they did not have the scale to do so. But I say there's a problem way before we get to whether or not Apple can meet the demand for repairs worldwide. I don't like companies that intentionally attempt to prevent people from repairing, hacking or modifying things. I don't like the term "Right to Repair" because it sounds kind of silly. But I recognize that the industrial revolution, the electronics boom, the invention of the personal computer, desktop software boom and the rise internet were all driven in part by people who tore other people's stuff apart, hacked it, modified it and reinvented it. Art gets so much credit in terms of being an uplifting passtime but we massively overlook the joy of learning how things work, changing them and sharing them. Anyone who stands in the way of that has lost the love of that. They've lost their passion and I don't really want to pay for their products.

simonh 8y ago

This is due to liability law. O2 is liable for the condition fo the phone they sold you, but if Apple take on the repair they adopt liability. Apple has a contract with O2 to repair the phone, not with you whom they don't have a contractual relationship with. They can't just waive that contractual relationship for every singe purchaser of Apple products from third parties world wide, it would open them up to a lot of risk. Suppose O2 screwed up warehousing and damaged a whole batch of iPhones somehow and then sold them to customers, Apple would end up liable for that. If you want a contractual relationship with Apple, just buy the phone from Apple.

sundvor 8y ago
I got an S8+ from Samsung on release via Telstra in Australia. There was an issue with the screen, so I took it to Samsung in Melbourne Central. They confirmed the issue and were happy to do an on the spot replacement if Telstra didn't have any left in their nearby store - for admin reasons it was just a bit better to do that. Telstra didn't, so I took Samsung up on their offer - very happy to have it resolved straight away. None of the BS as in the GP post with Apple.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  You're in Australia, OP's anecdote is in the UK. Different laws apply in different countries.
  - sundvor 8y ago
    I'm not sure if Samsung as the manufacturer was legally obliged to replace a device that I bought from a different supplier. I feel it would be well in their rights to tell me to just go to Telstra. However as a combined service center / sales outlet they had a policy to replace DOA units as long as it was a genuine Australian, non grey import. To be honest they just appear genuinely interested in looking after their customers and were just as excited as myself about the new release. I had a USB port issue with the S6 Edge phone prior to my S8+ and the was also resolved quickly by a repair, ended up being on the day with a free loaner. Service like that has pretty much guaranteed I'll stay with Samsung products for the foreseeable future (I upgrade every two years).

LoSboccacc 8y ago

> repairing with quality relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=703s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=703s

the_clarence 8y ago

Why would you buy a phone through O2? Just go to an Apple Store and buy it directly.

consp 8y ago
Most likely: phone-on-a-loan contracts. You pay per month instead of the insane cost outright.

danpalmer 8y ago

If it’s added as “Dead on Arrival” then O2 would have to give him a replacement right there. If it was classed as breaking after arrival due to a manufacturing defect then yep it’s up to O2 to do their repair process which sounds ridiculously long, but normal for phone companies. He would essentially be not accepting the phone, rather than accepting and returning. The phone companies might try to push him into the return process so that they can sell the phone that would have replaced it to another customer, but they aren’t supposed to, and will change their mind when you push back and tell them your rights. This is one of the reasons why I only buy my Apple products from Apple, their service is far better than this, although has declined in recent years.

kirykl 8y ago

I dont know if its different in UK but in US the warranty is provided by Apple and the Apple Store would repair any Apple product as long as an authorized retailer sold it

zelon88 8y ago

They need to invest in making their hardware documented and accessible. Obviously their secrecy isn't doing their customers any favors regardless of how you look at it. What's more valuable to the consumer? A device that doesn't work and cannot reasonably be repaired or a device that was repaired with knock off parts and inexperienced labor that still gets the job done? To take an adage from farmers; "The best machine is one that can perform it's duties despite it's condition."