8 ms·

The impact of this will be much bigger outside of the US, as most countries outside of North America do not have a single Apple Store. In those countries, usua

by andr 8y ago

The impact of this will be much bigger outside of the US, as most countries outside of North America do not have a single Apple Store. In those countries, usually there is a licensed repair provider, but the customer experience can be drastically different. In Bulgaria, I've had to wait of over 3 weeks for a simple in-warranty repair of a MacBook, like a keyboard replacement. Using unlicensed repair stores has been the only choice. Now that this option is gone, it will surely be harder to justify owning a MacBook as a business device.

sianns 8y ago
"Most countries outside of North Americs don't have a single apple store" lol. Rinse out your brain.
- arnvald 8y ago
  Apple stores are in 24 countries, excluding North America that's 22. Which means that most countries don't have a single Apple Store. So not only is your comment rude and inappropriate, it's also incorrect.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  There are 195 countries in the world, 23 in North America. There are 24 countries with Apple stores, 2 in North America. So, there are 172 countries not in North America, 22 of which have at least one Apple Store. So, “most countries outside of North America don't have a single Apple Store” is true, though it's even more true that most countries in North America don't have a single Apple store.
  - growt 8y ago
    How are there 23 countries in North America?
    - selectodude 8y ago
      Caribbean and Central America.
    - imron 8y ago
      https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-north-america.html https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-north-ame...
      - pmontra 8y ago
        The extent of North America is quite country dependent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America#Extent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America#Extent
muse900 8y ago
Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple products have started becoming inaccessible to me too. From what I understand they want to protect their brand by building quality and repairing with quality as well. Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do. A week ago I was in the apple store in London, a guy next to me bought one of their new flagships through o2 and the phone's buttons weren't usable, he was told by o2 he has to wait 3 weeks on a replacement, so he tried his luck by going to the apple store. He was told that there is nothing they can do and that he has to do it through o2, which I personally find it appalling, having paid a big chunk of money and getting a defective product, which is under warranty and all that and being told that they can't fix it or replace it and you have to go through the person you bought it from to replace it. I felt like their service isn't going to do any justice to me if anything is to happen to my iphone, watch, airpods, macbook. Not to say that i live in Greece as well where the waiting times to get something repaired is around 3 weeks as well, I managed to fix my own keyboard on my mac watching youtube videos and ordering the toolkit from amazon in 2 hours... they wanted 3 weeks, and looking at it, to an experienced engineer with the right tools would take about 2 mins to fix it. They need to invest in their repairs worldwide if they want to keep their customer base imho.
- DubiousPusher 8y ago
  I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is incorrect. > Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do. That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us. Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.
  - bionoid 8y ago
    > Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform. Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a right to reverse-engineer software if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year. Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian), https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42 https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42
askmike 8y ago
I was literally yesterday in the shop of an official reseller in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia, there is no Apple Store here). I have non critical problems with my Macbook Pro and asked if they can fix it (including the keyboard problem for which there is a repair program). "We will have to take it in for repair, this will take at least 14 business days."
- hrktb 8y ago
  At this point can’t you ship it to Apple ?
  - fulafel 8y ago
    Sending it to their Cupertino address might be a good way of protest at least.
    - hrktb 8y ago
      Just in case, it was not meant sarcasticly. Repairs can be done by shipping it to whatever support address they provide. I haven’t done it in years but if your repair shop takes 14 days, it can be signifixantly faster.
      - Sharlin 8y ago
        The whole point with that 14 business days quote is that they will very likely ship it somewhere outside the country, or at the very least to another city. And if you ship it yourself you most likely have to pay for the shipping from your own pocket.
        hrktb 8y ago
        Not under warranty, Apple provides the shipping both ways.
        askmike 8y ago
praseodym 8y ago
The three Apple Stores in The Netherlands so popular that it is impossible to even get an appointment at the Genius Bar. You’ll have to wait for new slots to become available at the end of their 7-day window. When you finally have your appointment after a week there’s usually another 20min+ minute wait before the busy Geniuses can speak to you. Fortunately common iOS repairs (like a display replacement) can often be done on the same day. The situation for MacBooks is a lot worse however, with many days of just waiting for parts.
- Yetanfou 8y ago
  Fortunately there is an easy solution to this conundrum: stop buying products which can only be repaired by "geniuses" in a "licensed shop". The same spiel was tried by car manufacturers where it was quashed by legal requirements to open up for repair by third parties. It is currently being tried by agricultural manufacturers (John Deere being a well-known and not so well-loved example) which try to use firmware licenses to keep farmers from repairing or enhancing their equipment without giving Deere its pound of flesh. This practice will hopefully meet the same end as the automotive equivalent although there is a chance that lobbyists for the industry manage to buy themselves a reprieve given that the market is a lot smaller and as such the buyers don't represent as many votes. It may be clear that there is no Deere on my farm, nor will there be one for as long as they keep up these shenanigans. The only apples here are the ones on the trees, free to be handled by mere mortals. Come to think of it I seem to remember the Bible warning us about certain fruits in Genesis 3:3 - "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
  - linkmotif 8y ago
    Really appreciate the Bible reference there at the end! Not often you get a bible reference on here, and so topical :)
john2x 8y ago
In the Philippines, Macbooks that need servicing (e.g. the "free" keyboard repair offer for the 2016-2018 Macbooks) need to be shipped all the way to Singapore. Estimated waiting time: 4 weeks. At least it's free I guess.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Given how hard these things are getting to repair and how long it takes, I think you could argue that Apple should just offer to replace faulty devices with new ones. Having a pro device out of action for more than a week is just not acceptable. If it breaks, I want to have the replacement up and running ASAP. If Apple can then repair and refurbish the original at their own leisurely pace, fine. That will also put the pressure on cutting down on repair times and cost for Apple. They seem incentivized to milk their expensive care package a bit too much currently. Anyway, my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running. I'm actually considering permanently switching to a linux machine and then getting it repaired. After it comes back, I'll probably sell it.
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  > my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running. My '15 MBP retina had it's keyboard and trackpad shit itself about 12 months after I purchased it. It was becoming apparent at the time that a) apple wouldn't repair it (they told me that I must have damaged it myself so they wouldn't do a warranty job, before even inspecting it) and b) they wanted to take the machine for diagnosis and repairs at the "local" apple centre (roughly 400km away at the time) which through experience I knew to take at least several weeks. This was not a viable solution for me as it was a work machine, and any downtime was problematic. So I've permanently had my wired keyboard and mouse with me since. Needless to say I've got an 8th gen i7 Dell on it's way in the mail now.
  - ssijak 8y ago
    Good luck with dell warranty/service.
    - RobAley 8y ago
      The whole point of this story is that you can get such machines fixed at independent repair shops if the manufacturer is not playing ball. Apple is trying to stop that, Dell et al aren't (as far as i'm aware. )
chewyland 8y ago
My Bulgarian MacBook adventure was actually pretty great. I needed an arrow key for my 2014 MacBook and contacted a shop in Sofia. They were happy to ship (they had it in sock) it to their sister shop in Varna (closer to me) and once I got there the key and labor to replace it (granted, it only took them 3 minutes) was less than €2. Yes, two Euros.
- llampx 8y ago
  Times have changed. That repair would now cost you 700€
  - abrowne 8y ago
    I don't love the new keyboard, but keycaps are still replaceable as long as the scissor mechanism is OK. (Previously the scissor could be replaced, too.)
- systemtest 8y ago
  Did they let you keep the sock?
  - tossimba 8y ago
    go back to reddit
wjnc 8y ago
It might be totally unfeasible for a consumer to get your rights over a small repair, but you do have EU-law protection for your rights as a consumer. Article 3 of the directive [1] states your rights quite clearly: "Any repair or replacement shall be completed within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience to the consumer, taking account of the nature of the goods and the purpose for which the consumer required the goods." If the seller does not meet these guidelines (possibly enacted in local law, but this has to be within the framework set by the directive) you can annul the contract and get your money back. For a laptop, 3 weeks seems unreasonable and with significant inconvenience. The bigger point is that Apple seems to be totally in denial of European consumer law and actively seeks to hinder timely and convenient repairs. That is one that should be addressed at a European level. They allow stores to sell their product without being able to offer the minimum warranty. Via EU-law that's a problem for the seller, not so much Apple, but the EU could argue that it's Apple that is setting the agenda and hindering stores to give proper warranty. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A31999L0044 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
- tobyhinloopen 8y ago
  I hope we get a "right to repair" law in EU, where the seller is required by law to provide repairability services next to their regular warranties. That means that, as a seller, you must provide a service to repair (and replacement parts) for "reasonable" prices for anything you sell. For example, if you're selling notebooks, you must be able to provide notebook parts and repair as well for the products you sell. Context: Imagine dropping your macbook and the screen breaks; You must be able to get it replaced for a "reasonable" price and you must be able to buy a replacement screen to repair it yourself. The seller must provide these services (either by delegating it to a repair or repairing it themselves)
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Maintainability is a feature, so to speak. Another option would be to purchase the product that best fits your needs, including warranty, repair, parts, upgrading, etc. If Brand A decides it's best to not provide Feature X and you __need__ Feature X, then you can decide that Brand A isn't for you. If anything should be legislated it should be publishing the details about warranty coverage, average cost or repair, most common repairs, as well as turnaround times. Then, with that info, let the consumer make the decision that best fits them.
artur_makly 8y ago
you can add all of LATAM to that list. FAIL
owenwil 8y ago
Yeah, growing up in New Zealand I fixed many of my own and others' MacBooks/iMacs with aftermarket parts for this reason. We had no official channel, outside of shipping to Australia or further which required a 3-4 week wait, a potential invoice, and of course the entire time you're without a machine. It's a real bummer, because this is still the reality today, and some of these repairs are trivial (i.e battery).

by andr 8y ago

sianns 8y ago

"Most countries outside of North Americs don't have a single apple store" lol. Rinse out your brain.

arnvald 8y ago
Apple stores are in 24 countries, excluding North America that's 22. Which means that most countries don't have a single Apple Store. So not only is your comment rude and inappropriate, it's also incorrect.
dragonwriter 8y ago
There are 195 countries in the world, 23 in North America. There are 24 countries with Apple stores, 2 in North America. So, there are 172 countries not in North America, 22 of which have at least one Apple Store. So, “most countries outside of North America don't have a single Apple Store” is true, though it's even more true that most countries in North America don't have a single Apple store.
- growt 8y ago
  How are there 23 countries in North America?
  - selectodude 8y ago
    Caribbean and Central America.
  - imron 8y ago
    https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-north-america.html https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-north-ame...
    - pmontra 8y ago
      The extent of North America is quite country dependent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America#Extent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America#Extent

muse900 8y ago

Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple products have started becoming inaccessible to me too. From what I understand they want to protect their brand by building quality and repairing with quality as well. Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do. A week ago I was in the apple store in London, a guy next to me bought one of their new flagships through o2 and the phone's buttons weren't usable, he was told by o2 he has to wait 3 weeks on a replacement, so he tried his luck by going to the apple store. He was told that there is nothing they can do and that he has to do it through o2, which I personally find it appalling, having paid a big chunk of money and getting a defective product, which is under warranty and all that and being told that they can't fix it or replace it and you have to go through the person you bought it from to replace it. I felt like their service isn't going to do any justice to me if anything is to happen to my iphone, watch, airpods, macbook. Not to say that i live in Greece as well where the waiting times to get something repaired is around 3 weeks as well, I managed to fix my own keyboard on my mac watching youtube videos and ordering the toolkit from amazon in 2 hours... they wanted 3 weeks, and looking at it, to an experienced engineer with the right tools would take about 2 mins to fix it. They need to invest in their repairs worldwide if they want to keep their customer base imho.

DubiousPusher 8y ago
I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is incorrect. > Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do. That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us. Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.
- bionoid 8y ago
  > Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform. Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a right to reverse-engineer software if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year. Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian), https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42 https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42

askmike 8y ago

I was literally yesterday in the shop of an official reseller in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia, there is no Apple Store here). I have non critical problems with my Macbook Pro and asked if they can fix it (including the keyboard problem for which there is a repair program). "We will have to take it in for repair, this will take at least 14 business days."

hrktb 8y ago
At this point can’t you ship it to Apple ?
- fulafel 8y ago
  Sending it to their Cupertino address might be a good way of protest at least.
  - hrktb 8y ago
    Just in case, it was not meant sarcasticly. Repairs can be done by shipping it to whatever support address they provide. I haven’t done it in years but if your repair shop takes 14 days, it can be signifixantly faster.
    - Sharlin 8y ago
      The whole point with that 14 business days quote is that they will very likely ship it somewhere outside the country, or at the very least to another city. And if you ship it yourself you most likely have to pay for the shipping from your own pocket.
      - hrktb 8y ago
        Not under warranty, Apple provides the shipping both ways.
        askmike 8y ago

praseodym 8y ago

The three Apple Stores in The Netherlands so popular that it is impossible to even get an appointment at the Genius Bar. You’ll have to wait for new slots to become available at the end of their 7-day window. When you finally have your appointment after a week there’s usually another 20min+ minute wait before the busy Geniuses can speak to you. Fortunately common iOS repairs (like a display replacement) can often be done on the same day. The situation for MacBooks is a lot worse however, with many days of just waiting for parts.

Yetanfou 8y ago
Fortunately there is an easy solution to this conundrum: stop buying products which can only be repaired by "geniuses" in a "licensed shop". The same spiel was tried by car manufacturers where it was quashed by legal requirements to open up for repair by third parties. It is currently being tried by agricultural manufacturers (John Deere being a well-known and not so well-loved example) which try to use firmware licenses to keep farmers from repairing or enhancing their equipment without giving Deere its pound of flesh. This practice will hopefully meet the same end as the automotive equivalent although there is a chance that lobbyists for the industry manage to buy themselves a reprieve given that the market is a lot smaller and as such the buyers don't represent as many votes. It may be clear that there is no Deere on my farm, nor will there be one for as long as they keep up these shenanigans. The only apples here are the ones on the trees, free to be handled by mere mortals. Come to think of it I seem to remember the Bible warning us about certain fruits in Genesis 3:3 - "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
- linkmotif 8y ago
  Really appreciate the Bible reference there at the end! Not often you get a bible reference on here, and so topical :)

john2x 8y ago

In the Philippines, Macbooks that need servicing (e.g. the "free" keyboard repair offer for the 2016-2018 Macbooks) need to be shipped all the way to Singapore. Estimated waiting time: 4 weeks. At least it's free I guess.

jillesvangurp 8y ago

Given how hard these things are getting to repair and how long it takes, I think you could argue that Apple should just offer to replace faulty devices with new ones. Having a pro device out of action for more than a week is just not acceptable. If it breaks, I want to have the replacement up and running ASAP. If Apple can then repair and refurbish the original at their own leisurely pace, fine. That will also put the pressure on cutting down on repair times and cost for Apple. They seem incentivized to milk their expensive care package a bit too much currently. Anyway, my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running. I'm actually considering permanently switching to a linux machine and then getting it repaired. After it comes back, I'll probably sell it.

King-Aaron 8y ago
> my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running. My '15 MBP retina had it's keyboard and trackpad shit itself about 12 months after I purchased it. It was becoming apparent at the time that a) apple wouldn't repair it (they told me that I must have damaged it myself so they wouldn't do a warranty job, before even inspecting it) and b) they wanted to take the machine for diagnosis and repairs at the "local" apple centre (roughly 400km away at the time) which through experience I knew to take at least several weeks. This was not a viable solution for me as it was a work machine, and any downtime was problematic. So I've permanently had my wired keyboard and mouse with me since. Needless to say I've got an 8th gen i7 Dell on it's way in the mail now.
- ssijak 8y ago
  Good luck with dell warranty/service.
  - RobAley 8y ago
    The whole point of this story is that you can get such machines fixed at independent repair shops if the manufacturer is not playing ball. Apple is trying to stop that, Dell et al aren't (as far as i'm aware. )

chewyland 8y ago

My Bulgarian MacBook adventure was actually pretty great. I needed an arrow key for my 2014 MacBook and contacted a shop in Sofia. They were happy to ship (they had it in sock) it to their sister shop in Varna (closer to me) and once I got there the key and labor to replace it (granted, it only took them 3 minutes) was less than €2. Yes, two Euros.

llampx 8y ago
Times have changed. That repair would now cost you 700€
- abrowne 8y ago
  I don't love the new keyboard, but keycaps are still replaceable as long as the scissor mechanism is OK. (Previously the scissor could be replaced, too.)
systemtest 8y ago
Did they let you keep the sock?
- tossimba 8y ago
  go back to reddit

wjnc 8y ago

It might be totally unfeasible for a consumer to get your rights over a small repair, but you do have EU-law protection for your rights as a consumer. Article 3 of the directive [1] states your rights quite clearly: "Any repair or replacement shall be completed within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience to the consumer, taking account of the nature of the goods and the purpose for which the consumer required the goods." If the seller does not meet these guidelines (possibly enacted in local law, but this has to be within the framework set by the directive) you can annul the contract and get your money back. For a laptop, 3 weeks seems unreasonable and with significant inconvenience. The bigger point is that Apple seems to be totally in denial of European consumer law and actively seeks to hinder timely and convenient repairs. That is one that should be addressed at a European level. They allow stores to sell their product without being able to offer the minimum warranty. Via EU-law that's a problem for the seller, not so much Apple, but the EU could argue that it's Apple that is setting the agenda and hindering stores to give proper warranty. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A31999L0044 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

tobyhinloopen 8y ago
I hope we get a "right to repair" law in EU, where the seller is required by law to provide repairability services next to their regular warranties. That means that, as a seller, you must provide a service to repair (and replacement parts) for "reasonable" prices for anything you sell. For example, if you're selling notebooks, you must be able to provide notebook parts and repair as well for the products you sell. Context: Imagine dropping your macbook and the screen breaks; You must be able to get it replaced for a "reasonable" price and you must be able to buy a replacement screen to repair it yourself. The seller must provide these services (either by delegating it to a repair or repairing it themselves)
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Maintainability is a feature, so to speak. Another option would be to purchase the product that best fits your needs, including warranty, repair, parts, upgrading, etc. If Brand A decides it's best to not provide Feature X and you __need__ Feature X, then you can decide that Brand A isn't for you. If anything should be legislated it should be publishing the details about warranty coverage, average cost or repair, most common repairs, as well as turnaround times. Then, with that info, let the consumer make the decision that best fits them.

artur_makly 8y ago

you can add all of LATAM to that list. FAIL

owenwil 8y ago

Yeah, growing up in New Zealand I fixed many of my own and others' MacBooks/iMacs with aftermarket parts for this reason. We had no official channel, outside of shipping to Australia or further which required a 3-4 week wait, a potential invoice, and of course the entire time you're without a machine. It's a real bummer, because this is still the reality today, and some of these repairs are trivial (i.e battery).