7 ms·

I’m not “blinded by [my] unwavering loyalty to the brand” but the suggestion that this sort of thing is going to send me over to Windows or Linux is ridiculous.

I’m not “blinded by [my] unwavering loyalty to the brand” but the suggestion that this sort of thing is going to send me over to Windows or Linux is ridiculous. I’m a normal guy who works in IT and does pretty much everything with my MBP. Work (Citrix, email, Office), play (Logic, Lightroom), development (Sublime, Chrome, the Terminal) ... I mean come on. For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on. I’m all-in on the Apple ecosystem for a damned good reason and, while I may not love this approach to repairs, that does not make me an unwavering loyalist. Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t.

jwalton 8y ago
I'm a developer. I just bought a 2018 MBP. I seriously thought about jumping ship to Linux. If I'd known about this, I would have.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  Yeah, you folks are the ones making all the noise. Meanwhile the silent majority just doesn't care at all. I haven't performed hardware repairs on a computer in more than a decade and don't plant to start any time soon.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    Most customers don't care, they don't care about repairability because modern devices are so reliable, they don't care about upgradeability because they bought the appropriate spec in the first place. Even if it does fail they don't really care about the cost of repair because they bought a premium product and their expectations are set accordingly.
    - bigbugbag 8y ago
      Actually, people do care about repairability more than you think, just look at the growing popularity of repair cafes. To me the issue is that devices are made to appear obsolete, a marketing scheme to boost profit, in a limited time frame and replaced instead of repaired not because they are reliable (for example the lawsuit for prone to breaking keys on recent macbooka[1]). People who care about upgradeability are people who know better and the vast majority does not and endure lack of performance from their badly chosen device for years due to not having enough money to replace them. Just look at the sheer quantity of people using expensive smartphones despite broken glass, damaged screens and slowly failing touch because they cannot afford the cost of repair. This alone is tell sign that the cost of repair is a serious and significant issue. [1]: http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/apple-macbook-butterfly-keyboards-class-action-lawsuit-2018-5 http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/apple-macbook-butterfly-key...
      - jen729w 8y ago
        FWIW, I upgraded a 5+ year old MacBook Air to the new MacBook Pro basically because I wanted to. I think the screen was the main driver, but really there was nothing wrong with that Air; as evidenced by the fact that a good friend is now using it as her primary computer. Planned obsolence is another meme that needs to die. Regarding the cost of screens for a phone, what, you wish they were lower? Me too! But they aren’t, if you want an original Apple screen. They cost a bunch to source ($110) [0], they cost a bunch for Apple to train up techs, and to have the systems and procedures and checklists such that every time you get an Apple replacement, it’s like new. Would everyone who dropped their phone wish for a $20 replacement? Of course. Tough luck. I’m not suggesting that non-Apple repair is different, but you have to admit that a knock-off 3rd party screen is probably not going to be as reliable. And who wears the pain and anger when that screen doesn’t work? Apple. You can’t fault them for wanting to control this stuff. If it was my company, I would. [0]: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/iphone-x-teardown-parts-cost-ihs-markit-2017-11 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/iphone-x-teardown-parts-c...
        simion314 8y ago
busterarm 8y ago
I'm mostly in the same boat as you, but I've had consistently poor experiences with MBPs and the MacOS ecosystem in general since roughly 2013. At the beginning of this year I was in the market for a new personal laptop -- even though I got to keep a top end new MBP from my last job, I couldn't consider it reliable (and it hasn't been) so I got a ThinkPad X270. It ended up being a fantastic decision and I've never been happier with a laptop. I switched my workstation at my job over to Arch Linux this week after not having run desktop Linux in roughly 10 years and the experience is _miles_ better already. I'll continue to use iOS devices, but I am done with MacOS and Mac hardware forever.
- busterarm 8y ago
  In case anyone asks: XMonad
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    Did you already use haskell?
    - busterarm 8y ago
      Never. I had a vague, casual familiarity with the syntax and got together a working configuration for my monitor setup and preferences in 20 minutes though.
flukus 8y ago
For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor. > Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t. That's a feature, in every category of electronoic life I have multiple companies competing to provide me with nearly everything I want. > For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on. That whole paragraph sounds like an ad.
- jen729w 8y ago
  “For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor.” That’ll be a logical fallacy whose name I can’t be arsed finding. I sure do love not having to deal with a bunch of shit just to keep my computers (phones, tablets, watches, earphones, tv) running. That’s what I love. This sad trope of the Apple fanboy needs to die. Just because I love not having to deal with all the crap does not mean that I love Apple to the depths of my heart. Would I prefer it if they didn’t lock independent repairers out of their new MacBooks? Sure! (Well “probably”, I haven’t considered all of the security implications. But probably!) Does that mean I’ll stick by them, no matter, what, for eternity? Of course not. If they start to fuck things up, I’ll look for something better. The point is, right now, there is nothing better. Don’t lie to me and tell me that Linux on a Dell is better. It is not. It is different in some ways, some of which may be important enough to you such that you classify it as “better”. But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is. Does that make me a sad fanboy? Shame on you if you think so.
  - BrockSamson 8y ago
    > But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is. Have any evidence to back up that spurious claim?
michaelmrose 8y ago
Aftershot Pro could replace lightroom, Reaper appears to be suitable for music production although there are other options. Both run on windows and linux. Every other laptop maker in existence lets you repair your own machine. Lenovo and Dell make solid machines that are powerful and light. Microsofts are even supposed to be pretty good. The fact that your Apple phone/watch syncs with fewer platforms seems to be a point against your phone and watch not a point in favor of your mac. Do you really honestly believe that nobody on earth makes decent bluetooth headphones except for apple. Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones. So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with a different laptop. Just admit you're a fanboy.
- bigbugbag 8y ago
  I'd mention darktable[1] and bitwig[2], both are cross-platform linux/win/macos. [1]: https://www.darktable.org/ https://www.darktable.org/ [2]: https://www.bitwig.com/ https://www.bitwig.com/
  - jen729w 8y ago
    Nothing like a cross-platform app for that real smooth user experience.
    - michaelmrose 8y ago
      It's not like java gtk or qt were a thing.
      - jen729w 8y ago
        It’s not like they weren’t fucking awful either.
- nextlevelwizard 8y ago
  So now to get "just as good, but cheaper" laptop which isn't as light or thin since somehow thouse aren't the primary functions of a laptop. I now should also buy a new expensive phone which sends all of my data to Google or I would have to buy the same phone and then research how to install 3rd party ROM which gets updated months later than stock Android and has god knows what security holes. Then I'd need to spend even more money on new watch/health tracker that syncronized seamlessly with both my new phone and my laptop. Before you get your panties on a knot I run both Windows and Linux and at home whole trifecta Windows, Linux, and OS X
bigbugbag 8y ago
> apple-only, apple-only, apple user lock-in, apple walled garden, apple. > don't tell me I can do this with something else than apple. Of you cannot play windows game on your linux box and you cannot get the same experience you have in the walled garden outside of it unless you change and adapt you devices. I have a client with a Linux ecosystem and a single iphone, apple does not provide itunes for linux so making backup and generally dealing with the iphone required buying a second hand windows laptop specifically to deal with this because with each update of the iphone OS apple breaks previous compatibility with linux that had been added by enthusiasts. I have a thinkpad running linux, it is cheaper, more powerful, thin (though this is not important), trivial to keep up-to-date, repairable, serviceable on site. I've set up a seamless sync for my computerphone which I use exclusively for phone calls, SMS and as a clock (no need for a gadget computerwatch that cannot even tell what time it is for 24h straight), lastly I do not use wireless headphones but I could if I wanted to. I'm out of the apple prison-system for a damned good reason too, it's overhyped, very expensive, is often not compatible with hardware outside it (could it be a reason you're all in on the apple walled garden ?), does not allow me to do what I choose, engage in huge amount of tax evasion with significant social consequences, locks user in, relies on free software makes huge profit but doesn't donate back and it goes on and on. What you describes here is nothing else than the existence of an impenetrable wall designed and built by apple to keep control and increase their profit, you choose to live inside the wall and I choose to live outside. We, outsiders, like to think people choosing to live inside the wall do so because they are blinded not because they are evil as this is easier on us than riskig losing faith in humanity.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Basically everyone in my family used to call me for tech support (parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins), but in the past 3 years or so, I’ve convinced everyone to iPhones and iPads and MacBook Airs, they have have basically zero tech support calls to me. Everything just works as long as they keep track of their Apple ID and iCloud login. There is definitely value to not spending any time or brain cycles worrying about how to do something, and having everything integrated and always working. With Windows, it’s always update this, restart that, where is this menu option, drivers? It’s not for people who don’t want to spend their time figuring that stuff out. Plus Microsoft is not as trustworthy of a brand.

jwalton 8y ago

I'm a developer. I just bought a 2018 MBP. I seriously thought about jumping ship to Linux. If I'd known about this, I would have.

toasterlovin 8y ago
Yeah, you folks are the ones making all the noise. Meanwhile the silent majority just doesn't care at all. I haven't performed hardware repairs on a computer in more than a decade and don't plant to start any time soon.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Most customers don't care, they don't care about repairability because modern devices are so reliable, they don't care about upgradeability because they bought the appropriate spec in the first place. Even if it does fail they don't really care about the cost of repair because they bought a premium product and their expectations are set accordingly.
  - bigbugbag 8y ago
    Actually, people do care about repairability more than you think, just look at the growing popularity of repair cafes. To me the issue is that devices are made to appear obsolete, a marketing scheme to boost profit, in a limited time frame and replaced instead of repaired not because they are reliable (for example the lawsuit for prone to breaking keys on recent macbooka[1]). People who care about upgradeability are people who know better and the vast majority does not and endure lack of performance from their badly chosen device for years due to not having enough money to replace them. Just look at the sheer quantity of people using expensive smartphones despite broken glass, damaged screens and slowly failing touch because they cannot afford the cost of repair. This alone is tell sign that the cost of repair is a serious and significant issue. [1]: http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/apple-macbook-butterfly-keyboards-class-action-lawsuit-2018-5 http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/apple-macbook-butterfly-key...
    - jen729w 8y ago
      FWIW, I upgraded a 5+ year old MacBook Air to the new MacBook Pro basically because I wanted to. I think the screen was the main driver, but really there was nothing wrong with that Air; as evidenced by the fact that a good friend is now using it as her primary computer. Planned obsolence is another meme that needs to die. Regarding the cost of screens for a phone, what, you wish they were lower? Me too! But they aren’t, if you want an original Apple screen. They cost a bunch to source ($110) [0], they cost a bunch for Apple to train up techs, and to have the systems and procedures and checklists such that every time you get an Apple replacement, it’s like new. Would everyone who dropped their phone wish for a $20 replacement? Of course. Tough luck. I’m not suggesting that non-Apple repair is different, but you have to admit that a knock-off 3rd party screen is probably not going to be as reliable. And who wears the pain and anger when that screen doesn’t work? Apple. You can’t fault them for wanting to control this stuff. If it was my company, I would. [0]: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/iphone-x-teardown-parts-cost-ihs-markit-2017-11 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/iphone-x-teardown-parts-c...
      - simion314 8y ago

busterarm 8y ago

I'm mostly in the same boat as you, but I've had consistently poor experiences with MBPs and the MacOS ecosystem in general since roughly 2013. At the beginning of this year I was in the market for a new personal laptop -- even though I got to keep a top end new MBP from my last job, I couldn't consider it reliable (and it hasn't been) so I got a ThinkPad X270. It ended up being a fantastic decision and I've never been happier with a laptop. I switched my workstation at my job over to Arch Linux this week after not having run desktop Linux in roughly 10 years and the experience is _miles_ better already. I'll continue to use iOS devices, but I am done with MacOS and Mac hardware forever.

busterarm 8y ago
In case anyone asks: XMonad
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  Did you already use haskell?
  - busterarm 8y ago
    Never. I had a vague, casual familiarity with the syntax and got together a working configuration for my monitor setup and preferences in 20 minutes though.

flukus 8y ago

For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor. > Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t. That's a feature, in every category of electronoic life I have multiple companies competing to provide me with nearly everything I want. > For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on. That whole paragraph sounds like an ad.

jen729w 8y ago
“For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor.” That’ll be a logical fallacy whose name I can’t be arsed finding. I sure do love not having to deal with a bunch of shit just to keep my computers (phones, tablets, watches, earphones, tv) running. That’s what I love. This sad trope of the Apple fanboy needs to die. Just because I love not having to deal with all the crap does not mean that I love Apple to the depths of my heart. Would I prefer it if they didn’t lock independent repairers out of their new MacBooks? Sure! (Well “probably”, I haven’t considered all of the security implications. But probably!) Does that mean I’ll stick by them, no matter, what, for eternity? Of course not. If they start to fuck things up, I’ll look for something better. The point is, right now, there is nothing better. Don’t lie to me and tell me that Linux on a Dell is better. It is not. It is different in some ways, some of which may be important enough to you such that you classify it as “better”. But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is. Does that make me a sad fanboy? Shame on you if you think so.
- BrockSamson 8y ago
  > But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is. Have any evidence to back up that spurious claim?

michaelmrose 8y ago

Aftershot Pro could replace lightroom, Reaper appears to be suitable for music production although there are other options. Both run on windows and linux. Every other laptop maker in existence lets you repair your own machine. Lenovo and Dell make solid machines that are powerful and light. Microsofts are even supposed to be pretty good. The fact that your Apple phone/watch syncs with fewer platforms seems to be a point against your phone and watch not a point in favor of your mac. Do you really honestly believe that nobody on earth makes decent bluetooth headphones except for apple. Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones. So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with a different laptop. Just admit you're a fanboy.

bigbugbag 8y ago
I'd mention darktable[1] and bitwig[2], both are cross-platform linux/win/macos. [1]: https://www.darktable.org/ https://www.darktable.org/ [2]: https://www.bitwig.com/ https://www.bitwig.com/
- jen729w 8y ago
  Nothing like a cross-platform app for that real smooth user experience.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    It's not like java gtk or qt were a thing.
    - jen729w 8y ago
      It’s not like they weren’t fucking awful either.
nextlevelwizard 8y ago
So now to get "just as good, but cheaper" laptop which isn't as light or thin since somehow thouse aren't the primary functions of a laptop. I now should also buy a new expensive phone which sends all of my data to Google or I would have to buy the same phone and then research how to install 3rd party ROM which gets updated months later than stock Android and has god knows what security holes. Then I'd need to spend even more money on new watch/health tracker that syncronized seamlessly with both my new phone and my laptop. Before you get your panties on a knot I run both Windows and Linux and at home whole trifecta Windows, Linux, and OS X

bigbugbag 8y ago

> apple-only, apple-only, apple user lock-in, apple walled garden, apple. > don't tell me I can do this with something else than apple. Of you cannot play windows game on your linux box and you cannot get the same experience you have in the walled garden outside of it unless you change and adapt you devices. I have a client with a Linux ecosystem and a single iphone, apple does not provide itunes for linux so making backup and generally dealing with the iphone required buying a second hand windows laptop specifically to deal with this because with each update of the iphone OS apple breaks previous compatibility with linux that had been added by enthusiasts. I have a thinkpad running linux, it is cheaper, more powerful, thin (though this is not important), trivial to keep up-to-date, repairable, serviceable on site. I've set up a seamless sync for my computerphone which I use exclusively for phone calls, SMS and as a clock (no need for a gadget computerwatch that cannot even tell what time it is for 24h straight), lastly I do not use wireless headphones but I could if I wanted to. I'm out of the apple prison-system for a damned good reason too, it's overhyped, very expensive, is often not compatible with hardware outside it (could it be a reason you're all in on the apple walled garden ?), does not allow me to do what I choose, engage in huge amount of tax evasion with significant social consequences, locks user in, relies on free software makes huge profit but doesn't donate back and it goes on and on. What you describes here is nothing else than the existence of an impenetrable wall designed and built by apple to keep control and increase their profit, you choose to live inside the wall and I choose to live outside. We, outsiders, like to think people choosing to live inside the wall do so because they are blinded not because they are evil as this is easier on us than riskig losing faith in humanity.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
Basically everyone in my family used to call me for tech support (parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins), but in the past 3 years or so, I’ve convinced everyone to iPhones and iPads and MacBook Airs, they have have basically zero tech support calls to me. Everything just works as long as they keep track of their Apple ID and iCloud login. There is definitely value to not spending any time or brain cycles worrying about how to do something, and having everything integrated and always working. With Windows, it’s always update this, restart that, where is this menu option, drivers? It’s not for people who don’t want to spend their time figuring that stuff out. Plus Microsoft is not as trustworthy of a brand.