4 ms·

IMO while I don't know the term, what has happened is buyers don't have good transparency on what they are getting for their money, and as a result the market h

by ip26 8y ago

IMO while I don't know the term, what has happened is buyers don't have good transparency on what they are getting for their money, and as a result the market has hyper-optimized for cost. When you aren't sure whether the more expensive ticket is going worth it to you, people take the cheaper ticket. The hotel industry sort of has this problem too- it's hard to know what you're getting- but the concept of "stars" helps ameliorate the effect somewhat.

saryant 8y ago
What transparency is missing? All the airlines disclose their seating configurations. There's SeatGuru. Google Flights even shows the pitch right in the search results.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
  SeatGuru is not run by the airlines and is not entirely accurate. It frequently shows configurations that will not match your airline or specific configuration. If airlines wanted to be transparent and encourage competition, they would disclose the seat measurement config alongside the price.
  - saryant 8y ago
    You're never going to get a perfect guarantee. The airlines have to have the ability to swap aircraft at the last minute and that may mean delivering different pitch than originally shown. Do passengers want the extra inch or do they want to arrive on time? I'm betting it's the latter.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      > Do passengers want the extra inch or do they want to arrive on time? I'm betting it's the latter. On-time with a partial refund for not getting the seat they'd paid for is an option, too.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  The prices shown on airline sites and aggregators like Orbitz don't remotely reflect the actual costs after pseudo-optional fees and taxes.
  - saryant 8y ago
    That's just not true. Go through the purchase flow for a United flight on Orbitz. Taxes are included and the checked-bag fees are prominently disclosed.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      I just checked out Orbitz again to confirm. The list of flights assumes I have zero bags, despite saying "including taxes and fees", with no way to get a list that incorporates a bag selection. The "cheapest" flight on Orbitz for my chosen destination is thus United, but with fairly well buried exceptions like "no carry-on bag" (which I didn't even know airlines restricted at all). If I account for the bag (and carry-on United would've told me I couldn't take) Southwest is actually cheaper.
- laken 8y ago
  One of the big airlines I hear a lot of hatred for regarding missing hidden fees is the ULCCs such as Frontier, Spirit, and Allegiant. Bags, snacks, seats with your party, etc. are not included at all in the base fare. The cost you see on those websites are for _a_ seat on that flight and nothing else. Many people, especially if they aren't frequent flyers don't realize that, and find out that the $100/person fare comes out to more like $200/person if they're flying with their family and needs seats together and at least a bag or two. If you know what you're doing, sure, it's transparent. But the people who fly most often on those carriers are people who never have or rarely do fly.
- longerthoughts 8y ago
  Who looks at seat dimensions and has a great concept of how comfortable a seat is going to be for them? It's helpful to be able to compare seats but I don't happen to know my femur length and bet I'm not alone. Not arguing that they're not being transparent, just that it's not particularly helpful.
ThrustVectoring 8y ago
>I don't know the term "Market for Lemons"
- ip26 8y ago
  Thank you, this is exactly it.
lotsofpulp 8y ago
I think if you’ve taken 1 or 2 economy flights, you should know what it’s like. They’re all the same, and for most people, they just don’t have the disposable income to spend more on a better flight experience, or they would rather spend it on something else.
- ip26 8y ago
  They’re all the same Right, and if any of them are different/better, people mostly aren't aware of it. So why would you shell out? If I knew a particular carrier consistently offered an extra four inches of legroom and consistently cost five percent more or whatever, I'd fly that carrier every time. But it's not even consistent within a carrier. Business/first class of course has great leg room on every carrier, but costs like five hundred percent more.
  - saryant 8y ago
    First class on domestic US flights goes for a much smaller premium than in years past. My usual domestic route is DEN-SFO and first class is usually twice the price of economy—or less. Far smaller difference than it used to be. AA was selling first class for less than coach on DEN-IAD last week.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    The airlines are offering more and more info about exactly what you're buying: https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/onboard-experience/delta-comfort-plus.html https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/on... https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pages/EconomyPlus.aspx https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pag... https://exploreamerican.com/maincabinextra/?%20cint=DSP%7C%7C20180705%7CMER%7CMKT%7CHRO%7C%7CLPM_MCE2.0Relaunch https://exploreamerican.com/maincabinextra/?%20cint=DSP%7C%7... I would guess most people that need it still won't be able to afford it though.
  - harryh 8y ago
    A ton of airlines now offer economy plus seats with roughly 4 inches of extra legroom (and a few other perks) for a nominal fee ($30-$50 generally).

by ip26 8y ago

saryant 8y ago

What transparency is missing? All the airlines disclose their seating configurations. There's SeatGuru. Google Flights even shows the pitch right in the search results.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
SeatGuru is not run by the airlines and is not entirely accurate. It frequently shows configurations that will not match your airline or specific configuration. If airlines wanted to be transparent and encourage competition, they would disclose the seat measurement config alongside the price.
- saryant 8y ago
  You're never going to get a perfect guarantee. The airlines have to have the ability to swap aircraft at the last minute and that may mean delivering different pitch than originally shown. Do passengers want the extra inch or do they want to arrive on time? I'm betting it's the latter.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    > Do passengers want the extra inch or do they want to arrive on time? I'm betting it's the latter. On-time with a partial refund for not getting the seat they'd paid for is an option, too.
ceejayoz 8y ago
The prices shown on airline sites and aggregators like Orbitz don't remotely reflect the actual costs after pseudo-optional fees and taxes.
- saryant 8y ago
  That's just not true. Go through the purchase flow for a United flight on Orbitz. Taxes are included and the checked-bag fees are prominently disclosed.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    I just checked out Orbitz again to confirm. The list of flights assumes I have zero bags, despite saying "including taxes and fees", with no way to get a list that incorporates a bag selection. The "cheapest" flight on Orbitz for my chosen destination is thus United, but with fairly well buried exceptions like "no carry-on bag" (which I didn't even know airlines restricted at all). If I account for the bag (and carry-on United would've told me I couldn't take) Southwest is actually cheaper.
laken 8y ago
One of the big airlines I hear a lot of hatred for regarding missing hidden fees is the ULCCs such as Frontier, Spirit, and Allegiant. Bags, snacks, seats with your party, etc. are not included at all in the base fare. The cost you see on those websites are for _a_ seat on that flight and nothing else. Many people, especially if they aren't frequent flyers don't realize that, and find out that the $100/person fare comes out to more like $200/person if they're flying with their family and needs seats together and at least a bag or two. If you know what you're doing, sure, it's transparent. But the people who fly most often on those carriers are people who never have or rarely do fly.
longerthoughts 8y ago
Who looks at seat dimensions and has a great concept of how comfortable a seat is going to be for them? It's helpful to be able to compare seats but I don't happen to know my femur length and bet I'm not alone. Not arguing that they're not being transparent, just that it's not particularly helpful.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago

>I don't know the term "Market for Lemons"

ip26 8y ago
Thank you, this is exactly it.

lotsofpulp 8y ago

I think if you’ve taken 1 or 2 economy flights, you should know what it’s like. They’re all the same, and for most people, they just don’t have the disposable income to spend more on a better flight experience, or they would rather spend it on something else.

ip26 8y ago
They’re all the same Right, and if any of them are different/better, people mostly aren't aware of it. So why would you shell out? If I knew a particular carrier consistently offered an extra four inches of legroom and consistently cost five percent more or whatever, I'd fly that carrier every time. But it's not even consistent within a carrier. Business/first class of course has great leg room on every carrier, but costs like five hundred percent more.
- saryant 8y ago
  First class on domestic US flights goes for a much smaller premium than in years past. My usual domestic route is DEN-SFO and first class is usually twice the price of economy—or less. Far smaller difference than it used to be. AA was selling first class for less than coach on DEN-IAD last week.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  The airlines are offering more and more info about exactly what you're buying: https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/onboard-experience/delta-comfort-plus.html https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/on... https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pages/EconomyPlus.aspx https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pag... https://exploreamerican.com/maincabinextra/?%20cint=DSP%7C%7C20180705%7CMER%7CMKT%7CHRO%7C%7CLPM_MCE2.0Relaunch https://exploreamerican.com/maincabinextra/?%20cint=DSP%7C%7... I would guess most people that need it still won't be able to afford it though.
- harryh 8y ago
  A ton of airlines now offer economy plus seats with roughly 4 inches of extra legroom (and a few other perks) for a nominal fee ($30-$50 generally).