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The fact that losing the birth-lottery and getting sick can make someone financially-poor through absolutely no fault of their own is astonishing. That so many

by howeyc 8y ago

The fact that losing the birth-lottery and getting sick can make someone financially-poor through absolutely no fault of their own is astonishing. That so many people I personally know in America are absolutely fine with this is something that blows my mind. I think it's insane, but I'm a "socialist" Canadian who shouldn't be pushing my crazy ideas on the southerners.

mruts 8y ago
I'm currently living in Tanzania (I grew up in the US). My wife fell into a ditch and broke her tooth. The cost to get it fixed? 20,000TZS (~$10). The problem is with our third party payer system, not with the free market.
- 24gttghh 8y ago
  Please explain how the US "healthcare" system is in any way run as a free market? I don't see it.
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    It is a hybrid system with individuals forced into highly-disadvantaged market transactions. It has the elements ofboth market and non-market systems which benefit monopolistic suppliers.
- addicted 8y ago
  I couldn’t easily find average incomes, but Tanzania has a GDP/capita that is more than 60 times less than that of the US. So the $10 is the equivalent of it costing $600 There. You’re likely seeing cheaper prices because of cheaper labor and doesn’t really tell us anything about the efficacies of a free market system or a third party payer system.
as300 8y ago
This story isn't really about "losing the birth lottery", so to speak. Its about someone not being able to afford nursing home care. The fact is that the US spends much of its money on caring for the elderly already, and there is, as the article notes, medicaid for those who cant afford to pay for nursing home care. As a result, im a bit confused as to why he had to sell his medal.
- Brockenstein 8y ago
  It might be along the lines that you have to have a minimum of assets to and money to qualify for some of those things. You know to prevent middle class and wealthy people from abusing the system designed for people who can't afford care. Having something that you could sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars therefore may be a disqualifer.
- yostrovs 8y ago
  Sounds like he had a fancy nursing home with horses, etc...
Brockenstein 8y ago
Lots of Americans agree with you. The problem is those that don't are: 1. Willing to gamble they'll never get sick 2. Don't want "their" tax dollars paying for other people's medical bills, other peoples anything for that matter. More aircraft carriers please! 3. Don't think there's a problem with the system because it hasn't destroyed them yet. 4. America is #1, best health care in the world, and any contrary information is ignored. Unfortunately for a lot of people if a problem doesn't impact them directly, it's not a problem or doesn't really exist and anyone else can eff off. In a very real way it's not just anti-socialist, it's just anti-social.
- howeyc 8y ago
  I think it really does come down to a disconnect of ideals, how much to support others by giving up some of your own? For instance, I truthfully told my boss I wouldn't mind my tax rate increasing if it meant everyone got medical coverage. He almost lost it, like he was ready to kill me, he was so angry. The fact that he would lose even more of his money, the rage, it was ferocious. I really saw first hand the "I got mine, fuck y'all" mentality. I didn't think it was real until then. I always thought that was sound-bite fox news talking point and the argument was over how much one should sacrifice for others. I stand corrected.
  - devcpp 8y ago
    Or maybe you don't get capitalism. It's not about selfishness or not wanting to lose money, it's about pushing others to work harder. Think of UBI as the other extreme, discouraging people to work for their own good when we'll have automation. Right now though, we need productivity, and we achieve that through capitalism. Money is a zero sum game, otherwise we could just print as much as we could. We're only as rich as others around us work hard for us. Granted, we live in a crony capitalist society so it's not working that well. For example, healthcare in the US is notorious for failing to spend money wisely.
  - mgkimsal 8y ago
    It's very hard for people to envision what would happen, outside of "i'd have to pay more money". except... a lot of society would change overall: * predatory lending would drop (people not having to go to payday lenders to get money for medicine, for example) * fewer sick days from people (either for themselves or their kids) * FAR FAR FAR more mobility in the labor force, as so many people feel locked in to their job because "insurance". Employer-provided insurance is one of the biggest things holding down our innovation and progress in society, IMO. I know dozens of talented people who are afraid to move jobs, move cities, or make any change at all because "current job = health insurance". They'll never be able to go work for newer small company X, because "insurance". Big companies may bitch about costs, but employer-provided insurance is a huge moat - financially and emotionally - that keeps the status quo humming to the detriment of many on the lower end.
crispyambulance 8y ago
> losing the birth-lottery He actually WON the birth lottery, having died at age 96. The medal was probably a more practical asset to sell-off for the family than something like real-estate. The cited rate for skilled nursing care in the article is not accurate. US 10K/month is about normal for a SHARED room for someone who is NOT in a memory unit. It only goes higher from there. There's something to be said for keeling over from a sudden heart attack as a septuagenarian.

by howeyc 8y ago

mruts 8y ago

I'm currently living in Tanzania (I grew up in the US). My wife fell into a ditch and broke her tooth. The cost to get it fixed? 20,000TZS (~$10). The problem is with our third party payer system, not with the free market.

24gttghh 8y ago
Please explain how the US "healthcare" system is in any way run as a free market? I don't see it.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  It is a hybrid system with individuals forced into highly-disadvantaged market transactions. It has the elements ofboth market and non-market systems which benefit monopolistic suppliers.
addicted 8y ago
I couldn’t easily find average incomes, but Tanzania has a GDP/capita that is more than 60 times less than that of the US. So the $10 is the equivalent of it costing $600 There. You’re likely seeing cheaper prices because of cheaper labor and doesn’t really tell us anything about the efficacies of a free market system or a third party payer system.

as300 8y ago

This story isn't really about "losing the birth lottery", so to speak. Its about someone not being able to afford nursing home care. The fact is that the US spends much of its money on caring for the elderly already, and there is, as the article notes, medicaid for those who cant afford to pay for nursing home care. As a result, im a bit confused as to why he had to sell his medal.

Brockenstein 8y ago
It might be along the lines that you have to have a minimum of assets to and money to qualify for some of those things. You know to prevent middle class and wealthy people from abusing the system designed for people who can't afford care. Having something that you could sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars therefore may be a disqualifer.
yostrovs 8y ago
Sounds like he had a fancy nursing home with horses, etc...

Brockenstein 8y ago

Lots of Americans agree with you. The problem is those that don't are: 1. Willing to gamble they'll never get sick 2. Don't want "their" tax dollars paying for other people's medical bills, other peoples anything for that matter. More aircraft carriers please! 3. Don't think there's a problem with the system because it hasn't destroyed them yet. 4. America is #1, best health care in the world, and any contrary information is ignored. Unfortunately for a lot of people if a problem doesn't impact them directly, it's not a problem or doesn't really exist and anyone else can eff off. In a very real way it's not just anti-socialist, it's just anti-social.

howeyc 8y ago
I think it really does come down to a disconnect of ideals, how much to support others by giving up some of your own? For instance, I truthfully told my boss I wouldn't mind my tax rate increasing if it meant everyone got medical coverage. He almost lost it, like he was ready to kill me, he was so angry. The fact that he would lose even more of his money, the rage, it was ferocious. I really saw first hand the "I got mine, fuck y'all" mentality. I didn't think it was real until then. I always thought that was sound-bite fox news talking point and the argument was over how much one should sacrifice for others. I stand corrected.
- devcpp 8y ago
  Or maybe you don't get capitalism. It's not about selfishness or not wanting to lose money, it's about pushing others to work harder. Think of UBI as the other extreme, discouraging people to work for their own good when we'll have automation. Right now though, we need productivity, and we achieve that through capitalism. Money is a zero sum game, otherwise we could just print as much as we could. We're only as rich as others around us work hard for us. Granted, we live in a crony capitalist society so it's not working that well. For example, healthcare in the US is notorious for failing to spend money wisely.
- mgkimsal 8y ago
  It's very hard for people to envision what would happen, outside of "i'd have to pay more money". except... a lot of society would change overall: * predatory lending would drop (people not having to go to payday lenders to get money for medicine, for example) * fewer sick days from people (either for themselves or their kids) * FAR FAR FAR more mobility in the labor force, as so many people feel locked in to their job because "insurance". Employer-provided insurance is one of the biggest things holding down our innovation and progress in society, IMO. I know dozens of talented people who are afraid to move jobs, move cities, or make any change at all because "current job = health insurance". They'll never be able to go work for newer small company X, because "insurance". Big companies may bitch about costs, but employer-provided insurance is a huge moat - financially and emotionally - that keeps the status quo humming to the detriment of many on the lower end.

crispyambulance 8y ago

> losing the birth-lottery He actually WON the birth lottery, having died at age 96. The medal was probably a more practical asset to sell-off for the family than something like real-estate. The cited rate for skilled nursing care in the article is not accurate. US 10K/month is about normal for a SHARED room for someone who is NOT in a memory unit. It only goes higher from there. There's something to be said for keeling over from a sudden heart attack as a septuagenarian.