6 ms·

node.js came into existence because it turned out that it was particularly apt for server side programming, not because it was force fitted into it.

aaronblohowiak 8y ago
A belief that it’s creater later discovered was in err.
- Nadya 8y ago
  Ryan Dahl has only spoken about implementation details and poor decisions made at the start that are too far along to correct now. He says Go is better than Node, not Javascript. If Javascript-as-a-server was a mistake then Ryan would not be working on Deno [0]. I just hope that the use of Py2 and having to stick with it doesn't bite them in the ass past 2020 [1]. With the caveat of my argument assuming "Typescript is a superset of Javascript." [0] https://github.com/denoland/deno https://github.com/denoland/deno [1] https://github.com/denoland/deno/issues/464#issuecomment-411795578 https://github.com/denoland/deno/issues/464#issuecomment-411...
  - nebulous1 8y ago
    I don't see (from that issue, this is the first I've heard of it) that they "have to stick with it". They're saying they won't try to move to python 3 until the V8 build does. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
  - aaronblohowiak 8y ago
    https://mappingthejourney.com/single-post/2017/08/31/episode-8-interview-with-ryan-dahl-creator-of-nodejs/ https://mappingthejourney.com/single-post/2017/08/31/episode... >That said, I think Node is not the best system to build a massive server web. I would definitely use Go for that. And honestly, that's basically the reason why I left Node. It was the realization that: oh, actually, this is not the best server side system ever.
    - Nadya 8y ago
      Node is not JavaScript. E: To clarify on this a little since I'm not posting from a phone. Which means he's still using Javascript-as-a-server (Deno), so he obviously still has some faith in using Javascript-as-a-server. Go > Node, in his opinion, but that says nothing about Go > Javascript.
- nebulous1 8y ago
  Oh? Is that why he's still at it to this very day? https://github.com/denoland/deno https://github.com/denoland/deno
  - aaronblohowiak 8y ago
    Iiuc, his goal for this is to create a better experience for one off exploratory stuff, not for evented servers. http://tinyclouds.org/jsconf2018.pdf http://tinyclouds.org/jsconf2018.pdf
    - nebulous1 8y ago
      well, from that document: > My problems with Node are almost entirely around > how it manages user code. > In contrast to the focus on evented I/O early on, > the module system was essentially an afterthought > With this in mind, I have long thought about how it > could be done better....
pjmlp 8y ago
Actually it was more because it allowed JavaScript developers to do server side programming. I still don't see what it offers against .NET, Java, C++, OCaml, Haskell stacks, and their concurrency options.
- EB66 8y ago
  It's a combination of both. The event loop and non-blocking I/O are inherent in JavaScript. The language lends itself very well to scalable server-side programming.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    There are plenty of event loop and non-blocking I/O libraries for the languages I have mentioned.
    - EB66 8y ago
      Yep, that's true. However, JavaScript does it right out of the box and the JavaScript ecosystem is very well-aligned for async. One of the most significant reasons to use a language like Node for server-side async programming is that for any random library you choose to use there's a very high probability the library also supports async and won't block on you. For better or for worse, async is pervasive in the JavaScript ecosystem. Even languages that have good async frameworks, like Python, most libraries will block as it's the normal I/O mode for the language.
  - forgotpwd16 8y ago
    How are event loop and non-blocking I/O inherent in JavaScript?
- hajile 8y ago
  Ocaml has no concurrency options worth mentioning (need to look to PolyML/SML or F# for that). Finding and teaching Haskell devs simply isn't feasible. C++ is way too low-level for most of the work that someone choosing node would be doing. It turns out that most of the reasons a server needs threads is IO. With node, any IO is moved to a new thread, so you get most of the threading benefits, but are completely safe (provided libuv is safe). Another consideration is JS being dynamic. It's very easy to create extremely flexible APIs and you can move very fast adding features without breaking things. While That SML or F# app will provide much better type guarantees (and somewhat better performance), those benefits simply don't pay off for a lot of projects. There's also something to be said for functional vs OOP styles. You will never see a JS dev writing enterprise fizzbuzz. Even in very large projects, those layers of boilerplate abstraction simply won't exist. Part of that is being dynamic and part is being functional.
cremp 8y ago
> apt for server side programming Except what part is that? Having to download 4 or 5 projects to build, compile, and run 'basic' pages is too much bloat; not to mention the dependency hell. It more and more seems to me like node was made 'because we can' instead of providing something. This can be seen with all of the cruft required; a lot made as an after-thought. Package manager, npm; which itself has proven that... it wasn't designed too well. The reliance of it creates the cruft. Add in the fact that a web server shouldn't be event driven. I (personally) haven't seen any other language do an event-driven web; and I'd say, for good reason (callback hell.) Javascript itself is okay because it's a requirement today for web pages to the average joe. However, if the Javascript foundation is merging; it'll their motto to use it (Node.)
- hajile 8y ago
  I've used ruby, java, python, etc and all of them require a decent amount of dependencies to get a server up and running. Likewise, dependency hell is an issue in lots of languages. The company I'm with has legacy dependency issues with their Java. They have pip dependency issues with Python. The front-end testers learned JS and left ruby simply because they couldn't get their tooling installed on another machine without a couple days work (turned out JS was easier to maintain and faster too). Yarn exists and solves the major issues NPM had (though they seem to be improving as well). EventMachine or twisted are two event-based servers (ruby and python) with some level of popularity. The big issue with them is every library you reach for has blocking code everywhere, so actually making it work is painful. Promises eliminated callback hell years ago for most of us. Koa/generators eliminate most of the rest as well. On the flip side, JS as a language is rapidly evolving and node is a serious consideration when adding new features. Node as an implementation is extremely fast and I doubt that there's another scripting language that comes anywhere close to its combination of performance, size, memory usage, startup time, etc.

aaronblohowiak 8y ago

A belief that it’s creater later discovered was in err.

Nadya 8y ago
Ryan Dahl has only spoken about implementation details and poor decisions made at the start that are too far along to correct now. He says Go is better than Node, not Javascript. If Javascript-as-a-server was a mistake then Ryan would not be working on Deno [0]. I just hope that the use of Py2 and having to stick with it doesn't bite them in the ass past 2020 [1]. With the caveat of my argument assuming "Typescript is a superset of Javascript." [0] https://github.com/denoland/deno https://github.com/denoland/deno [1] https://github.com/denoland/deno/issues/464#issuecomment-411795578 https://github.com/denoland/deno/issues/464#issuecomment-411...
- nebulous1 8y ago
  I don't see (from that issue, this is the first I've heard of it) that they "have to stick with it". They're saying they won't try to move to python 3 until the V8 build does. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
- aaronblohowiak 8y ago
  https://mappingthejourney.com/single-post/2017/08/31/episode-8-interview-with-ryan-dahl-creator-of-nodejs/ https://mappingthejourney.com/single-post/2017/08/31/episode... >That said, I think Node is not the best system to build a massive server web. I would definitely use Go for that. And honestly, that's basically the reason why I left Node. It was the realization that: oh, actually, this is not the best server side system ever.
  - Nadya 8y ago
    Node is not JavaScript. E: To clarify on this a little since I'm not posting from a phone. Which means he's still using Javascript-as-a-server (Deno), so he obviously still has some faith in using Javascript-as-a-server. Go > Node, in his opinion, but that says nothing about Go > Javascript.
nebulous1 8y ago
Oh? Is that why he's still at it to this very day? https://github.com/denoland/deno https://github.com/denoland/deno
- aaronblohowiak 8y ago
  Iiuc, his goal for this is to create a better experience for one off exploratory stuff, not for evented servers. http://tinyclouds.org/jsconf2018.pdf http://tinyclouds.org/jsconf2018.pdf
  - nebulous1 8y ago
    well, from that document: > My problems with Node are almost entirely around > how it manages user code. > In contrast to the focus on evented I/O early on, > the module system was essentially an afterthought > With this in mind, I have long thought about how it > could be done better....

pjmlp 8y ago

Actually it was more because it allowed JavaScript developers to do server side programming. I still don't see what it offers against .NET, Java, C++, OCaml, Haskell stacks, and their concurrency options.

EB66 8y ago
It's a combination of both. The event loop and non-blocking I/O are inherent in JavaScript. The language lends itself very well to scalable server-side programming.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  There are plenty of event loop and non-blocking I/O libraries for the languages I have mentioned.
  - EB66 8y ago
    Yep, that's true. However, JavaScript does it right out of the box and the JavaScript ecosystem is very well-aligned for async. One of the most significant reasons to use a language like Node for server-side async programming is that for any random library you choose to use there's a very high probability the library also supports async and won't block on you. For better or for worse, async is pervasive in the JavaScript ecosystem. Even languages that have good async frameworks, like Python, most libraries will block as it's the normal I/O mode for the language.
- forgotpwd16 8y ago
  How are event loop and non-blocking I/O inherent in JavaScript?
hajile 8y ago
Ocaml has no concurrency options worth mentioning (need to look to PolyML/SML or F# for that). Finding and teaching Haskell devs simply isn't feasible. C++ is way too low-level for most of the work that someone choosing node would be doing. It turns out that most of the reasons a server needs threads is IO. With node, any IO is moved to a new thread, so you get most of the threading benefits, but are completely safe (provided libuv is safe). Another consideration is JS being dynamic. It's very easy to create extremely flexible APIs and you can move very fast adding features without breaking things. While That SML or F# app will provide much better type guarantees (and somewhat better performance), those benefits simply don't pay off for a lot of projects. There's also something to be said for functional vs OOP styles. You will never see a JS dev writing enterprise fizzbuzz. Even in very large projects, those layers of boilerplate abstraction simply won't exist. Part of that is being dynamic and part is being functional.

cremp 8y ago

> apt for server side programming Except what part is that? Having to download 4 or 5 projects to build, compile, and run 'basic' pages is too much bloat; not to mention the dependency hell. It more and more seems to me like node was made 'because we can' instead of providing something. This can be seen with all of the cruft required; a lot made as an after-thought. Package manager, npm; which itself has proven that... it wasn't designed too well. The reliance of it creates the cruft. Add in the fact that a web server shouldn't be event driven. I (personally) haven't seen any other language do an event-driven web; and I'd say, for good reason (callback hell.) Javascript itself is okay because it's a requirement today for web pages to the average joe. However, if the Javascript foundation is merging; it'll their motto to use it (Node.)

hajile 8y ago
I've used ruby, java, python, etc and all of them require a decent amount of dependencies to get a server up and running. Likewise, dependency hell is an issue in lots of languages. The company I'm with has legacy dependency issues with their Java. They have pip dependency issues with Python. The front-end testers learned JS and left ruby simply because they couldn't get their tooling installed on another machine without a couple days work (turned out JS was easier to maintain and faster too). Yarn exists and solves the major issues NPM had (though they seem to be improving as well). EventMachine or twisted are two event-based servers (ruby and python) with some level of popularity. The big issue with them is every library you reach for has blocking code everywhere, so actually making it work is painful. Promises eliminated callback hell years ago for most of us. Koa/generators eliminate most of the rest as well. On the flip side, JS as a language is rapidly evolving and node is a serious consideration when adding new features. Node as an implementation is extremely fast and I doubt that there's another scripting language that comes anywhere close to its combination of performance, size, memory usage, startup time, etc.