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"If you are on Kubernetes, then you are not locked in to any cloud provider" ...but I would be beholden to GNU/Linux and have to do the same thing I do with Sm

"If you are on Kubernetes, then you are not locked in to any cloud provider" ...but I would be beholden to GNU/Linux and have to do the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way, built on an operating system substrate which cannot provide the reliability that I need to be able to sleep through my nights without an incident. Kubernetes, Docker, Linux are a time sink that I can never get back, on things which Solaris solved far better and reliably 20 years ago. I don't want to go from a Pegasus to a donkey.

yebyen 8y ago
> the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way Citation needed. Yes, Kubernetes runs on Linux kernel and until someone ports it to use something other than iptables and the linux cgroups API, that will be true. But I could say the same thing about being locked into SVR4/OpenSolaris, and I bet you a Coke that a lot more people will agree with me. The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now. Can you say that about SmartOS? There's a ton of value in that vibrant community. This is not meant to be a dig, seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?
- Annatar 8y ago
  "Citation needed." https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual+Machine+in+SmartOS https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual... https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Management+Facility https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Manag... ...and that's just a small, tiny sampling of what can be done, most of it doable across datacenters with Triton. With SmartOS, one virtualizes datacenters. "seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?" To read the comprehensive manual pages, then fire up DTrace, then mdb, then to the SmartOS mailing list, and if I want professional support, I pay Joyent, like I'd pay redhat, SuSE, or Canonical. I'm a computer science major with formal education and certification in Solaris. Those tests were notoriously difficult to pass. I know C. I know UNIX. I know how to program. I know how to debug. I know how to administer UNIX systems, I know how to design physical servers from the ground up, everything someone system engineering large scale systems needs. How much support could I need with such excellent and comprehensive manual pages with lots of examples in them? "The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now" ...maybe that should tell you how "simple" Kubernetes is then, unless they're all there to grill smores, hang out and sing "Kumbayah"?
  - yebyen 8y ago
    So, am I understanding correctly that this is a virtualization solution? Isn't that not the same thing at all? Virtualization has a lot of overhead, and that would be my first concern, so can you address that? (My platform team balked at me when I suggested OpenShift, because they had it confused/thought I was talking about OpenStack, and they didn't want to incur the overhead of a virtualization layer. It wasn't until I said for the fifth time that it's a container solution and does not require any virtualization, that they actually tuned back in and stopped asking what hypervisor it used.) My point is not that I couldn't use it, but that again, we're not talking about the same ballpark. A virtualization solution is not a containers solution. Wait. Wait wait... I'm wrong, aren't I? From a quick google, it looks like Solaris Zones are almost exactly like containers in this way. So this actually does both, huh? > maybe that should tell you how "simple" Kubernetes is then, unless they're all there to grill smores I told you in my first post, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Kubernetes isn't simple, there is some learning curve, but that once you get over it, you are actually over it. Can you honestly say there is no learning curve to SmartOS? > I'm a computer science major with formal education and certification in Solaris. ... How much support could I need with such excellent and comprehensive manual pages with lots of examples in them? I'll take that as a "no". And from what you're saying, it sounds like there is actually no community slack? I don't believe you; come on, where do you go to gripe when you find something stupid? I've seen some projects that appear to only use Github, but when you dig a little deeper, they also have a Slack or some other community organizing platforms where you can reach a person who also uses the software like you do, without an established billing relationship (often times right away) and simply ask about their experiences. Maybe it's an IRC channel? Maybe you are all consummate professionals and just use mailing lists, but I am skeptical of that.
    - Annatar 8y ago
      " A virtualization solution is not a containers solution. Wait. Wait wait... I'm wrong, aren't I? From a quick google, it looks like Solaris Zones are almost exactly like containers in this way." Yes, and they are true containers: fully functional UNIX servers, running at the speed of bare metal, because the OS is virtualized and not the hardware. I was running zones back in 2006 when project Kevlar first came out. Few months later we were running eight 4GB Oracle database instances in a single T2000 server, each database inside of one zone... GNU/Linux didn't even know what a container was yet, and wouldn't for several years... Yes there's an IRC channel. Don't remember what it is. I've never needed to go there. I pop up on the SmartOS mailing list every few years to ask not a technical, but an architectural question. That's about it. "Maybe you are all consummate professionals and just use mailing lists, but I am skeptical of that." A lot of us are professional system and/or kernel engineers or architects, yes. Many of us are freelancers and consultants. Most of us are true engineers, with university degrees in engineering. But there are a lot of newcomers too, especially from ISP's, where SmartOS is a popular hosting solution for infrastructure and customers. The kind of stuff that has to work and has to be unbreakable because it's making money.
- justinsaccount 8y ago
  Don't waste your time, he's a troll that pops up on every thread that has anything to do with things like docker or k8s. It doesn't matter what the problem is, smartos is the solution. SmartOS is solid technology, but he doesn't have the slightest clue what k8s does, but is completely certain that smartos somehow does "the same thing" better. They aren't even mutually exclusive, there's no reason you couldn't write a CRI backend to run k8s on top of zones on smartos.
  - Annatar 8y ago
    "Don't waste your time, he's a troll that pops up on every thread that has anything to do with things like docker or k8s." Thank you for an off-topic opinion. Yes, I do "pop up" on every Kubernetes and Docker topic because both are nothing but hype and bullshit (this topic with "no thanks" is a rare exception, and I wholeheartedly agree with the author of it, even though I vehemently disagree with some of his methods). What the hell do I need an "orchestrator" like Kubernetes for if all my components are packaged and I have a software deployment server where I can mass deploy to all my systems at will? (Hint: I don't.) Kubernetes is a solution to a string of bad decisions, making the situation even worse. And Kubernetes is nothing but a provisioning solution. If you think Kubernetes is an orchestrator, you've never seen one. Nolio is an orchestrator. So what if Joyent has Kubernetes support? Joyent isn't infallible, just because they make SmartOS that doesn't make them right in everything. It's not like they can do no wrong. Let's refrain from fanboyism; being Joyent doesn't automatically make them right in everything they do.
    - justinsaccount 8y ago
      > he doesn't have the slightest clue what k8s does, but is completely certain that smartos somehow does "the same thing" better. I stand by this statement. You don't have any idea what k8s does. If you actually cared about convincing people that you don't need k8s and smartos is better, you'd write your own article describing in detail how you can easily use smartos for running personal projects on a 3 node cluster. Put up or shut up. YOU are nothing but hype.
      - 8y ago

yebyen 8y ago

> the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way Citation needed. Yes, Kubernetes runs on Linux kernel and until someone ports it to use something other than iptables and the linux cgroups API, that will be true. But I could say the same thing about being locked into SVR4/OpenSolaris, and I bet you a Coke that a lot more people will agree with me. The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now. Can you say that about SmartOS? There's a ton of value in that vibrant community. This is not meant to be a dig, seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?

Annatar 8y ago
"Citation needed." https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual+Machine+in+SmartOS https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual... https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Management+Facility https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Manag... ...and that's just a small, tiny sampling of what can be done, most of it doable across datacenters with Triton. With SmartOS, one virtualizes datacenters. "seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?" To read the comprehensive manual pages, then fire up DTrace, then mdb, then to the SmartOS mailing list, and if I want professional support, I pay Joyent, like I'd pay redhat, SuSE, or Canonical. I'm a computer science major with formal education and certification in Solaris. Those tests were notoriously difficult to pass. I know C. I know UNIX. I know how to program. I know how to debug. I know how to administer UNIX systems, I know how to design physical servers from the ground up, everything someone system engineering large scale systems needs. How much support could I need with such excellent and comprehensive manual pages with lots of examples in them? "The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now" ...maybe that should tell you how "simple" Kubernetes is then, unless they're all there to grill smores, hang out and sing "Kumbayah"?
- yebyen 8y ago
  So, am I understanding correctly that this is a virtualization solution? Isn't that not the same thing at all? Virtualization has a lot of overhead, and that would be my first concern, so can you address that? (My platform team balked at me when I suggested OpenShift, because they had it confused/thought I was talking about OpenStack, and they didn't want to incur the overhead of a virtualization layer. It wasn't until I said for the fifth time that it's a container solution and does not require any virtualization, that they actually tuned back in and stopped asking what hypervisor it used.) My point is not that I couldn't use it, but that again, we're not talking about the same ballpark. A virtualization solution is not a containers solution. Wait. Wait wait... I'm wrong, aren't I? From a quick google, it looks like Solaris Zones are almost exactly like containers in this way. So this actually does both, huh? > maybe that should tell you how "simple" Kubernetes is then, unless they're all there to grill smores I told you in my first post, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Kubernetes isn't simple, there is some learning curve, but that once you get over it, you are actually over it. Can you honestly say there is no learning curve to SmartOS? > I'm a computer science major with formal education and certification in Solaris. ... How much support could I need with such excellent and comprehensive manual pages with lots of examples in them? I'll take that as a "no". And from what you're saying, it sounds like there is actually no community slack? I don't believe you; come on, where do you go to gripe when you find something stupid? I've seen some projects that appear to only use Github, but when you dig a little deeper, they also have a Slack or some other community organizing platforms where you can reach a person who also uses the software like you do, without an established billing relationship (often times right away) and simply ask about their experiences. Maybe it's an IRC channel? Maybe you are all consummate professionals and just use mailing lists, but I am skeptical of that.
  - Annatar 8y ago
    " A virtualization solution is not a containers solution. Wait. Wait wait... I'm wrong, aren't I? From a quick google, it looks like Solaris Zones are almost exactly like containers in this way." Yes, and they are true containers: fully functional UNIX servers, running at the speed of bare metal, because the OS is virtualized and not the hardware. I was running zones back in 2006 when project Kevlar first came out. Few months later we were running eight 4GB Oracle database instances in a single T2000 server, each database inside of one zone... GNU/Linux didn't even know what a container was yet, and wouldn't for several years... Yes there's an IRC channel. Don't remember what it is. I've never needed to go there. I pop up on the SmartOS mailing list every few years to ask not a technical, but an architectural question. That's about it. "Maybe you are all consummate professionals and just use mailing lists, but I am skeptical of that." A lot of us are professional system and/or kernel engineers or architects, yes. Many of us are freelancers and consultants. Most of us are true engineers, with university degrees in engineering. But there are a lot of newcomers too, especially from ISP's, where SmartOS is a popular hosting solution for infrastructure and customers. The kind of stuff that has to work and has to be unbreakable because it's making money.
justinsaccount 8y ago
Don't waste your time, he's a troll that pops up on every thread that has anything to do with things like docker or k8s. It doesn't matter what the problem is, smartos is the solution. SmartOS is solid technology, but he doesn't have the slightest clue what k8s does, but is completely certain that smartos somehow does "the same thing" better. They aren't even mutually exclusive, there's no reason you couldn't write a CRI backend to run k8s on top of zones on smartos.
- Annatar 8y ago
  "Don't waste your time, he's a troll that pops up on every thread that has anything to do with things like docker or k8s." Thank you for an off-topic opinion. Yes, I do "pop up" on every Kubernetes and Docker topic because both are nothing but hype and bullshit (this topic with "no thanks" is a rare exception, and I wholeheartedly agree with the author of it, even though I vehemently disagree with some of his methods). What the hell do I need an "orchestrator" like Kubernetes for if all my components are packaged and I have a software deployment server where I can mass deploy to all my systems at will? (Hint: I don't.) Kubernetes is a solution to a string of bad decisions, making the situation even worse. And Kubernetes is nothing but a provisioning solution. If you think Kubernetes is an orchestrator, you've never seen one. Nolio is an orchestrator. So what if Joyent has Kubernetes support? Joyent isn't infallible, just because they make SmartOS that doesn't make them right in everything. It's not like they can do no wrong. Let's refrain from fanboyism; being Joyent doesn't automatically make them right in everything they do.
  - justinsaccount 8y ago
    > he doesn't have the slightest clue what k8s does, but is completely certain that smartos somehow does "the same thing" better. I stand by this statement. You don't have any idea what k8s does. If you actually cared about convincing people that you don't need k8s and smartos is better, you'd write your own article describing in detail how you can easily use smartos for running personal projects on a 3 node cluster. Put up or shut up. YOU are nothing but hype.
    - 8y ago