6 ms·

> Second, would have it been cheaper to manufacture somewhere more trustworthy (another country?) instead of spending all this time/money on your anti-hack syst

> Second, would have it been cheaper to manufacture somewhere more trustworthy (another country?) instead of spending all this time/money on your anti-hack systems? I'd like to know this too. Has the West completely lost the ability to mass produce microchips at even a reasonable cost for financial applications?

TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
It's not the chips that are the problem. Most of Intel's fabs are in the US, and their assembly sites are in a number of countries.
- cwingrav 8y ago
  I think people should know how stark the differences for assembly in the US are vs outside of it. Something that costs, at low prototype volumes mind you, $20 in China for a dozen boards or so, would run hundreds of dollars in the US and still take the same amount of time. As it scales up, the ratio might improve, but these aren't like 10%-20% differences.
raverbashing 8y ago
This is not microchips, this is basic PCB assembly But I'd guess momentum is hard to change.
baybal2 8y ago
America has fabs, both old and leading edge, but ask industry giants like Gemalto to even bother to manufacture chips anywhere outside of Taiwan, assemble the final product outside of China. They will never do that, because they look for the cheapest solution. The bigger the company, the less it cares about things other than cost. This is why Mediatek and Broadcom can usurp the market of network SoCs, while making products with atrociously bad support. I personally dealt with both, and say that they wholely match their popular culture image. I don't know how it is with USA, but for Russia, the military doesn't care that their chips had frequency measured in kilohertz, and had sizes measured in square sentimetres, for as long as they get them made inside the country.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  What about Japan? I know they've lost most of their semiconductor business as well, but they still have some capacity no?
  - baybal2 8y ago
    I don't know that.
  - hatergonnahate 8y ago
    Japan was ruined mostly because of population problem years ago and (very) slowly recovering. I've saw a TV drama in 2016 (http://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2016/04/were-millennials-got-a-problem.html http://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2016/04/were-millennials-got...) basically describing what the younger generation is still struggling.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    I’m under the impression that China does not make chips, but they do final assembly cheaper and faster than everyone else. I don’t know if any companies do PCB manufacturing and assembly outside of China in large numbers.
    - baybal2 8y ago
      Not exactly, PCB assembly is super cheap everywhere thanks to propagation of chipshooters, what makes the cost go up is logistics - what do you do after you populate the board for your part? Ship it across the world, or to another factory behind the corner?
      - hef19898 8y ago
        That largely depends on the size of your board and the total number you want to ship. As soon as you reach full truck loads or full container loads that additional shipping cost is marginal on a board level.
TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
Offshoring has its costs. It's the unknown unknowns that get you.
- RanInt1111 8y ago
  I contend that they weren't unknown unknowns at all, they were ignored and mocked knowns due to self-delusion. How long have those who warned of the totalitarian communist dictatorship's real intentions been mocked and scorned and called all manner of manipulative and debate ending slurs and insults? What is really the only unknown unknown is the level of the invariable outcome of this fools errand of both subjugating and submitting to not only China, but very much also islam, Russians in the spirit of the soviets, and even Mexicans/Latin America. The biggest "unknown unknown" is the ultimate, albeit invariable outcome of this submission and self-destructive path the west is on. Not unknown in any way at all is that it will not end well. That is knowable, although many do not want to know that.
  - dang 8y ago
    Nationalistic flamewar is not welcome here; neither are political or ideological flamewar. We ban accounts that use HN primarily for those things. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here.
HillaryBriss 8y ago
> Has the West completely lost the ability ... at first I had the same thought. but i have to question how securely the same manufacturing could be done in a US plant. the US employee base has its fair share of desperate, ethically challenged individuals. and plenty of incentives to make a quick buck could be offered here too. idk.
- whyaduck 8y ago
  The consequences if US citizens or residents get caught engaging in espionage for a foreign government are go-to-jail-for-years serious.
  - subcosmos 8y ago
    And it's not white collar resort prison ... no no no! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4
  - datavirtue 8y ago
    Death penalty.
  - HillaryBriss 8y ago
    ok. a fair point. OTOH, given US law enforcement's low efficiency what are the chances of being caught? and what if it's merely corporate espionage? finally, the US is an open society with strong personal freedom guarantees builtin. what if the perpetrator has ties to a foreign country and simply leaves the US after they've installed the vulnerabilities?

TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago

It's not the chips that are the problem. Most of Intel's fabs are in the US, and their assembly sites are in a number of countries.

cwingrav 8y ago
I think people should know how stark the differences for assembly in the US are vs outside of it. Something that costs, at low prototype volumes mind you, $20 in China for a dozen boards or so, would run hundreds of dollars in the US and still take the same amount of time. As it scales up, the ratio might improve, but these aren't like 10%-20% differences.

raverbashing 8y ago

This is not microchips, this is basic PCB assembly But I'd guess momentum is hard to change.

baybal2 8y ago

America has fabs, both old and leading edge, but ask industry giants like Gemalto to even bother to manufacture chips anywhere outside of Taiwan, assemble the final product outside of China. They will never do that, because they look for the cheapest solution. The bigger the company, the less it cares about things other than cost. This is why Mediatek and Broadcom can usurp the market of network SoCs, while making products with atrociously bad support. I personally dealt with both, and say that they wholely match their popular culture image. I don't know how it is with USA, but for Russia, the military doesn't care that their chips had frequency measured in kilohertz, and had sizes measured in square sentimetres, for as long as they get them made inside the country.

m_mueller 8y ago
What about Japan? I know they've lost most of their semiconductor business as well, but they still have some capacity no?
- baybal2 8y ago
  I don't know that.
- hatergonnahate 8y ago
  Japan was ruined mostly because of population problem years ago and (very) slowly recovering. I've saw a TV drama in 2016 (http://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2016/04/were-millennials-got-a-problem.html http://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2016/04/were-millennials-got...) basically describing what the younger generation is still struggling.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  I’m under the impression that China does not make chips, but they do final assembly cheaper and faster than everyone else. I don’t know if any companies do PCB manufacturing and assembly outside of China in large numbers.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Not exactly, PCB assembly is super cheap everywhere thanks to propagation of chipshooters, what makes the cost go up is logistics - what do you do after you populate the board for your part? Ship it across the world, or to another factory behind the corner?
    - hef19898 8y ago
      That largely depends on the size of your board and the total number you want to ship. As soon as you reach full truck loads or full container loads that additional shipping cost is marginal on a board level.

TheOtherHobbes 8y ago

Offshoring has its costs. It's the unknown unknowns that get you.

RanInt1111 8y ago
I contend that they weren't unknown unknowns at all, they were ignored and mocked knowns due to self-delusion. How long have those who warned of the totalitarian communist dictatorship's real intentions been mocked and scorned and called all manner of manipulative and debate ending slurs and insults? What is really the only unknown unknown is the level of the invariable outcome of this fools errand of both subjugating and submitting to not only China, but very much also islam, Russians in the spirit of the soviets, and even Mexicans/Latin America. The biggest "unknown unknown" is the ultimate, albeit invariable outcome of this submission and self-destructive path the west is on. Not unknown in any way at all is that it will not end well. That is knowable, although many do not want to know that.
- dang 8y ago
  Nationalistic flamewar is not welcome here; neither are political or ideological flamewar. We ban accounts that use HN primarily for those things. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here.

HillaryBriss 8y ago

> Has the West completely lost the ability ... at first I had the same thought. but i have to question how securely the same manufacturing could be done in a US plant. the US employee base has its fair share of desperate, ethically challenged individuals. and plenty of incentives to make a quick buck could be offered here too. idk.

whyaduck 8y ago
The consequences if US citizens or residents get caught engaging in espionage for a foreign government are go-to-jail-for-years serious.
- subcosmos 8y ago
  And it's not white collar resort prison ... no no no! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4
- datavirtue 8y ago
  Death penalty.
- HillaryBriss 8y ago
  ok. a fair point. OTOH, given US law enforcement's low efficiency what are the chances of being caught? and what if it's merely corporate espionage? finally, the US is an open society with strong personal freedom guarantees builtin. what if the perpetrator has ties to a foreign country and simply leaves the US after they've installed the vulnerabilities?