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"Oh man, the original article went way over the author's head." No, the author of the Kubernetes article completely, so utterly missed the point that it's not

"Oh man, the original article went way over the author's head." No, the author of the Kubernetes article completely, so utterly missed the point that it's not even funny: none of those Kubernetes complications are necessary if one runs SmartOS and optionally, as a bonus, Triton. Since doing something the harder and more complicated way for the same effect is irrational, which presumably the author of the Kubernetes article isn't, I'm compelled to presume that he just didn't know about SmartOS and Triton, or that the person is just interested in boosting their resume rather than researching what the most robust and simplest technology is. If resume boosting with Kubernetes is their goal then their course of action makes sense, but the company where they work won't get the highest reliability and lowest complexity that they could get. So good for them, suboptimal for their (potential) employer. And that's also a concern, moreover, it's a highly professional one. I'm looking through the employer's eyes on this, but then again, I really like sleeping through entire nights without an incident. A simple and robust architecture is a big part of that. Resume boosting isn't.

yebyen 8y ago
While that's great, and I thought about plugging my own containers project here too, to get it some exposure and possibly help someone (we're trying to help people get on the train, and that's commendable, I didn't downvote you) now you've gone from something bespoke to something basically singular, where Kubernetes is a leading industry standard with the weight of at least[1] 77 vendors who have sought and achieved conformance[2] with their own distributions of Kubernetes. I haven't heard of Joyent or SmartOS in years! I am super surprised to hear of anyone recommending it today as a competitor to Kubernetes, and I have no facts or deep understanding of that platform so I won't belabor you with an argument about how Kubernetes is better. (I can't say if it is or isn't.) It's just not in the same ballpark. I'm glad it works for you. I'm especially glad to hear about another option (that we could potentially replace our bespoke deployments with), because the more of these things I know about, the louder I can clamor to upper management about the fact that we're not using any of these technologies yet, and we should be (to sleep through the night!) I learned about Kubernetes through Deis Workflow. It took years to understand Kubernetes from end-to-end, and I was already a container veteran when Deis moved to k8s. I resisted! I caved. I came over, now I have years of experience with Kubernetes, and I can't say I'd recommend anything else. "Those complications" are all very hard to get over, but then ... you get over them! And largely don't have to do that again. If you are on Kubernetes, then you are not locked in to any cloud provider (unless you have opted into another technology that made you locked in.) I can't say the same for Triton. For the purposes of disclosure, I am a member of Team Hephy, the open source Deis Workflow fork. (Deis Workflow is EOL and Hephy is the continuation.) Workflow is how I learned Kubernetes, and I would still recommend it highly to anyone else that wants to learn Kubernetes. But I will not kid anyone into thinking it's going to happen overnight. (With Workflow though, you can absolutely start using it productively in about an hour.)[3] [1]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LxSqBzjOxfGx3cmtZ4EbB_BGCxT_wlxW_xgHVVa23es/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LxSqBzjOxfGx3cmtZ4Eb... [2]: https://www.cncf.io/certification/software-conformance/ https://www.cncf.io/certification/software-conformance/ [3]: https://web.teamhephy.com https://web.teamhephy.com or https://blog.teamhephy.info/#install https://blog.teamhephy.info/#install
- Annatar 8y ago
  "If you are on Kubernetes, then you are not locked in to any cloud provider" ...but I would be beholden to GNU/Linux and have to do the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way, built on an operating system substrate which cannot provide the reliability that I need to be able to sleep through my nights without an incident. Kubernetes, Docker, Linux are a time sink that I can never get back, on things which Solaris solved far better and reliably 20 years ago. I don't want to go from a Pegasus to a donkey.
  - yebyen 8y ago
    > the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way Citation needed. Yes, Kubernetes runs on Linux kernel and until someone ports it to use something other than iptables and the linux cgroups API, that will be true. But I could say the same thing about being locked into SVR4/OpenSolaris, and I bet you a Coke that a lot more people will agree with me. The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now. Can you say that about SmartOS? There's a ton of value in that vibrant community. This is not meant to be a dig, seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?
    - Annatar 8y ago
      "Citation needed." https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual+Machine+in+SmartOS https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual... https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Management+Facility https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Manag... ...and that's just a small, tiny sampling of what can be done, most of it doable across datacenters with Triton. With SmartOS, one virtualizes datacenters. "seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?" To read the comprehensive manual pages, then fire up DTrace, then mdb, then to the SmartOS mailing list, and if I want professional support, I pay Joyent, like I'd pay redhat, SuSE, or Canonical. I'm a computer science major with formal education and certification in Solaris. Those tests were notoriously difficult to pass. I know C. I know UNIX. I know how to program. I know how to debug. I know how to administer UNIX systems, I know how to design physical servers from the ground up, everything someone system engineering large scale systems needs. How much support could I need with such excellent and comprehensive manual pages with lots of examples in them? "The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now" ...maybe that should tell you how "simple" Kubernetes is then, unless they're all there to grill smores, hang out and sing "Kumbayah"?
greenyouse 8y ago
If you go to joyent.com you'll see "Multi-Cloud Kubernetes" is on their homepage above the fold and listed in their products & services category. SmartOS is an operating system. Triton is a data center for running container instances. Kubernetes is a container orchestration tool. These are all solving separate problems...
- Annatar 8y ago
  Triton can orchestrate containers[1] (they're actually Solaris zones[2], to which constraints in terms of project definitions[3] can optionally be applied, and those constraints are actually containers). [1] https://www.joyent.com/content/11-containerpilot/chart.1507658221.svg https://www.joyent.com/content/11-containerpilot/chart.15076..., https://docs.joyent.com/private-cloud https://docs.joyent.com/private-cloud [2] http://illumos.org/man/1M/zonecfg http://illumos.org/man/1M/zonecfg [3] http://illumos.org/man/1M/projadd http://illumos.org/man/1M/projadd
sctb 8y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138716.
- Annatar 8y ago
  The reason being...?
  - sctb 8y ago
    It relates primarily to the article and not the parent comment.

yebyen 8y ago

While that's great, and I thought about plugging my own containers project here too, to get it some exposure and possibly help someone (we're trying to help people get on the train, and that's commendable, I didn't downvote you) now you've gone from something bespoke to something basically singular, where Kubernetes is a leading industry standard with the weight of at least[1] 77 vendors who have sought and achieved conformance[2] with their own distributions of Kubernetes. I haven't heard of Joyent or SmartOS in years! I am super surprised to hear of anyone recommending it today as a competitor to Kubernetes, and I have no facts or deep understanding of that platform so I won't belabor you with an argument about how Kubernetes is better. (I can't say if it is or isn't.) It's just not in the same ballpark. I'm glad it works for you. I'm especially glad to hear about another option (that we could potentially replace our bespoke deployments with), because the more of these things I know about, the louder I can clamor to upper management about the fact that we're not using any of these technologies yet, and we should be (to sleep through the night!) I learned about Kubernetes through Deis Workflow. It took years to understand Kubernetes from end-to-end, and I was already a container veteran when Deis moved to k8s. I resisted! I caved. I came over, now I have years of experience with Kubernetes, and I can't say I'd recommend anything else. "Those complications" are all very hard to get over, but then ... you get over them! And largely don't have to do that again. If you are on Kubernetes, then you are not locked in to any cloud provider (unless you have opted into another technology that made you locked in.) I can't say the same for Triton. For the purposes of disclosure, I am a member of Team Hephy, the open source Deis Workflow fork. (Deis Workflow is EOL and Hephy is the continuation.) Workflow is how I learned Kubernetes, and I would still recommend it highly to anyone else that wants to learn Kubernetes. But I will not kid anyone into thinking it's going to happen overnight. (With Workflow though, you can absolutely start using it productively in about an hour.)[3] [1]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LxSqBzjOxfGx3cmtZ4EbB_BGCxT_wlxW_xgHVVa23es/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LxSqBzjOxfGx3cmtZ4Eb... [2]: https://www.cncf.io/certification/software-conformance/ https://www.cncf.io/certification/software-conformance/ [3]: https://web.teamhephy.com https://web.teamhephy.com or https://blog.teamhephy.info/#install https://blog.teamhephy.info/#install

Annatar 8y ago
"If you are on Kubernetes, then you are not locked in to any cloud provider" ...but I would be beholden to GNU/Linux and have to do the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way, built on an operating system substrate which cannot provide the reliability that I need to be able to sleep through my nights without an incident. Kubernetes, Docker, Linux are a time sink that I can never get back, on things which Solaris solved far better and reliably 20 years ago. I don't want to go from a Pegasus to a donkey.
- yebyen 8y ago
  > the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way Citation needed. Yes, Kubernetes runs on Linux kernel and until someone ports it to use something other than iptables and the linux cgroups API, that will be true. But I could say the same thing about being locked into SVR4/OpenSolaris, and I bet you a Coke that a lot more people will agree with me. The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now. Can you say that about SmartOS? There's a ton of value in that vibrant community. This is not meant to be a dig, seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?
  - Annatar 8y ago
    "Citation needed." https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+Images https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual+Machine+in+SmartOS https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/How+to+create+a+Virtual... https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Managing+NICs https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Management+Facility https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/Using+the+Service+Manag... ...and that's just a small, tiny sampling of what can be done, most of it doable across datacenters with Triton. With SmartOS, one virtualizes datacenters. "seriously where do you go when you need SmartOS support?" To read the comprehensive manual pages, then fire up DTrace, then mdb, then to the SmartOS mailing list, and if I want professional support, I pay Joyent, like I'd pay redhat, SuSE, or Canonical. I'm a computer science major with formal education and certification in Solaris. Those tests were notoriously difficult to pass. I know C. I know UNIX. I know how to program. I know how to debug. I know how to administer UNIX systems, I know how to design physical servers from the ground up, everything someone system engineering large scale systems needs. How much support could I need with such excellent and comprehensive manual pages with lots of examples in them? "The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and nearly 1000 are online right now" ...maybe that should tell you how "simple" Kubernetes is then, unless they're all there to grill smores, hang out and sing "Kumbayah"?

greenyouse 8y ago

If you go to joyent.com you'll see "Multi-Cloud Kubernetes" is on their homepage above the fold and listed in their products & services category. SmartOS is an operating system. Triton is a data center for running container instances. Kubernetes is a container orchestration tool. These are all solving separate problems...

Annatar 8y ago
Triton can orchestrate containers[1] (they're actually Solaris zones[2], to which constraints in terms of project definitions[3] can optionally be applied, and those constraints are actually containers). [1] https://www.joyent.com/content/11-containerpilot/chart.1507658221.svg https://www.joyent.com/content/11-containerpilot/chart.15076..., https://docs.joyent.com/private-cloud https://docs.joyent.com/private-cloud [2] http://illumos.org/man/1M/zonecfg http://illumos.org/man/1M/zonecfg [3] http://illumos.org/man/1M/projadd http://illumos.org/man/1M/projadd

sctb 8y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138716.

Annatar 8y ago
The reason being...?
- sctb 8y ago
  It relates primarily to the article and not the parent comment.