5 ms·

I totally agree with this article. I'm giving a point of a view of a pure developer who knows nothing about DevOps things and managing servers. I kind of know w

I totally agree with this article. I'm giving a point of a view of a pure developer who knows nothing about DevOps things and managing servers. I kind of know what NGINX is and barely know how to configure something like systemd. I recently setup a digital ocean droplet and setup my blog there to actually understand how it works. It was great because I learned a ton and feel in control. Pretty simple setup - single droplet, rails with postgres, capistrano to automate deploys and a very simply NGINX config. It took me multiple days to setup everything, compared to the 5 minutes Heroku would have required - and it's not as nice as what Heroku offers. Still, I'd wait as long as I can to get out of something so simple as Heroku for _anything_. I understand it gets expensive quickly, but I really want to see the cost difference of Heroku vs the time spent for the engineering team to manage all the complexities of devops, automated deploys, scaling, and I'm not even mentioning all the data/logging/monitoring things that Heroku allows to add with 1 click.

rehemiau 8y ago
Did you try preconfigured Dokku images on Digital Ocean?
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  I've heard of Dokku as a "run your own Heroku" solution. Is there a good guide for this combo?
  - josegonzalez 8y ago
    The "quick-start" installation process on our homepage is `curl | bash` on a plain Ubuntu/Debian/Centos server (you can also run the commands manually, which are also outlined on that page). If you go through the web installer - which allows you to add your ssh key and setup a global domain - you'll be redirected to our deployment tutorial here: http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/deployment/application-deployment/ http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/deployment/application-deploy... - Dokku homepage: http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/ http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/
de_watcher 8y ago
> giving a point of a view of a pure developer Kubernetes really looks like designed by the software developers for the software developers: dump all configs of your services in one place, imagine that they run on the network. The uninteresting parts of the job (like managing nodes and ingress, fixing internal overlay network and DNS, adding services for centralized logging) aren't mixed with the actual services. Obviously, the package management is solved by using containers (essentially OS images) as the package format.
parasubvert 8y ago
There’s been a bit of a full circle going on in the industry. PaaS like Heroku were rejected by many because they couldn’t tinker inside the box. Docker and Kubernetes changes that, and there will be new Heroku-like experiences built on them. But for now we are in this weird mode where the Kubernetes momentum is eclipsing even Docker, even though raw K8s reminds me of Linux in the Slackware days. there is so much FOMO, people don’t consider Heroku or anything off the Kubernetes wagon, except maybe AWS Lambda.
- collyw 8y ago
  As someone that knew how to set up a server before hand I found Heroku a real pain in the arse to use.
  - acjohnson55 8y ago
    To learn, or to utilize on an ongoing basis? I'm curious what you found difficult, because since remapping my mind to 12-factor years ago, I still haven't found anything as simple as just using Heroku.
    - collyw 8y ago
      I only used it once or twice, so to learn. Every time I have had an EC2, Rackspace equivalent or other server I knew what I was doing and other than what felt like some minor stuff. I guess its kind of related to the comment that people didn't like not being able to tinker with the box. (It kind of felt like a black box to me, far more difficult to debug than a "normal" server).
      - parasubvert 8y ago
        A lot depends on where and how you work. If you are responsible for development and end to end operations down to the VM, K8s and Docker make a ton of sense. If someone is doing that for you, ie. roles are separated, or you don’t want to take it on and prefer to outsource it, then a higher level abstraction like Heroku makes more sense. Debugging is different (still possible, just different from if you owned the full box). This split also accounts for why AWS Lambda is growing in popularity (and debugging is probably its main gating factor).
Draiken 8y ago
> I understand it gets expensive quickly, but I really want to see the cost difference of Heroku vs the time spent for the engineering team to manage all the complexities of devops, automated deploys, scaling, and I'm not even mentioning all the data/logging/monitoring things that Heroku allows to add with 1 click. Well, if you use a k8s cluster on GKE for example, you will have literally all those things by default. Not even a click needed. IMO running your own Kubernetes cluster for a company is insanity unless you have a very good reason to do so.
- parasubvert 8y ago
  GKE is nice, probably the best K8s experience, but it's still a heck of a lot more complicated than Heroku.
- whydoineedthis 8y ago
  unless you already know how to do it. i can setup a production ready cluster in under a day and as long as things are containerized, run them likety split. Hardly insane once you know how it works.
  - dsnuh 8y ago
    An on-prem "production ready" k8s cluster in under a day? What kind of businesses are you setting this up for? Are these all greenfield projects? I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that. We run on-prem k8s, on bare metal and VMs. Integration with existing storage (we use NetApp Solidfire and NFS), load balancers, firewalls, backup strategy, DR, etc. takes weeks, if not months of work. But we may disagree on what "production ready" means.
    - Draiken 8y ago
      Key word there being "on-prem". The hard part of Kubernetes is setting up the cluster. If you are using an existing k8s master, it should be fairly easy. One day of course seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me :)
icebraining 8y ago
It took you multiple days the first time; how long would it have taken you the tenth? Optimizing for the first time is rarely a good approach if you're working with those tools regularly, in my opinion.
tomc1985 8y ago
It is weird to hear developers say this. The tooling around your app is essential to understanding how it runs, why would someone not know this stuff?
- sjf 8y ago
  I don't know how to design an IC either...
  - zymhan 8y ago
    You do if you're programming in assembly. Developers need to understand how the layer underneath their code works. If you're writing Java, you should understand the JVM. If you're writing C, you should understand the compiler.
    - stronglikedan 8y ago
      One layer, maybe, but should you be able to deploy any type of web server on every OS if you're writing a web app? I'm not so sure.
      - zymhan 8y ago
        > One layer Yes, that's why I said "layer beneath" and not "layerS beneath"
        stronglikedan 8y ago
        Correct, which is why I was agreeing with you, but questioning the premise of a couple comments above yours. I.e., how far up the infrastructure stack should have developer the expected to know intimately?
- oblio 8y ago
  Because they don't care, what they're doing is good enough and at the end of the day they want to go home and enjoy what they like together with the loved ones. Shocking, truly :p I know this is a dirty thought, here on Hacker News.

rehemiau 8y ago

Did you try preconfigured Dokku images on Digital Ocean?

acjohnson55 8y ago
I've heard of Dokku as a "run your own Heroku" solution. Is there a good guide for this combo?
- josegonzalez 8y ago
  The "quick-start" installation process on our homepage is `curl | bash` on a plain Ubuntu/Debian/Centos server (you can also run the commands manually, which are also outlined on that page). If you go through the web installer - which allows you to add your ssh key and setup a global domain - you'll be redirected to our deployment tutorial here: http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/deployment/application-deployment/ http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/deployment/application-deploy... - Dokku homepage: http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/ http://dokku.viewdocs.io/dokku/

de_watcher 8y ago

> giving a point of a view of a pure developer Kubernetes really looks like designed by the software developers for the software developers: dump all configs of your services in one place, imagine that they run on the network. The uninteresting parts of the job (like managing nodes and ingress, fixing internal overlay network and DNS, adding services for centralized logging) aren't mixed with the actual services. Obviously, the package management is solved by using containers (essentially OS images) as the package format.

parasubvert 8y ago

There’s been a bit of a full circle going on in the industry. PaaS like Heroku were rejected by many because they couldn’t tinker inside the box. Docker and Kubernetes changes that, and there will be new Heroku-like experiences built on them. But for now we are in this weird mode where the Kubernetes momentum is eclipsing even Docker, even though raw K8s reminds me of Linux in the Slackware days. there is so much FOMO, people don’t consider Heroku or anything off the Kubernetes wagon, except maybe AWS Lambda.

collyw 8y ago
As someone that knew how to set up a server before hand I found Heroku a real pain in the arse to use.
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  To learn, or to utilize on an ongoing basis? I'm curious what you found difficult, because since remapping my mind to 12-factor years ago, I still haven't found anything as simple as just using Heroku.
  - collyw 8y ago
    I only used it once or twice, so to learn. Every time I have had an EC2, Rackspace equivalent or other server I knew what I was doing and other than what felt like some minor stuff. I guess its kind of related to the comment that people didn't like not being able to tinker with the box. (It kind of felt like a black box to me, far more difficult to debug than a "normal" server).
    - parasubvert 8y ago
      A lot depends on where and how you work. If you are responsible for development and end to end operations down to the VM, K8s and Docker make a ton of sense. If someone is doing that for you, ie. roles are separated, or you don’t want to take it on and prefer to outsource it, then a higher level abstraction like Heroku makes more sense. Debugging is different (still possible, just different from if you owned the full box). This split also accounts for why AWS Lambda is growing in popularity (and debugging is probably its main gating factor).

Draiken 8y ago

> I understand it gets expensive quickly, but I really want to see the cost difference of Heroku vs the time spent for the engineering team to manage all the complexities of devops, automated deploys, scaling, and I'm not even mentioning all the data/logging/monitoring things that Heroku allows to add with 1 click. Well, if you use a k8s cluster on GKE for example, you will have literally all those things by default. Not even a click needed. IMO running your own Kubernetes cluster for a company is insanity unless you have a very good reason to do so.

parasubvert 8y ago
GKE is nice, probably the best K8s experience, but it's still a heck of a lot more complicated than Heroku.
whydoineedthis 8y ago
unless you already know how to do it. i can setup a production ready cluster in under a day and as long as things are containerized, run them likety split. Hardly insane once you know how it works.
- dsnuh 8y ago
  An on-prem "production ready" k8s cluster in under a day? What kind of businesses are you setting this up for? Are these all greenfield projects? I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that. We run on-prem k8s, on bare metal and VMs. Integration with existing storage (we use NetApp Solidfire and NFS), load balancers, firewalls, backup strategy, DR, etc. takes weeks, if not months of work. But we may disagree on what "production ready" means.
  - Draiken 8y ago
    Key word there being "on-prem". The hard part of Kubernetes is setting up the cluster. If you are using an existing k8s master, it should be fairly easy. One day of course seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me :)

icebraining 8y ago

It took you multiple days the first time; how long would it have taken you the tenth? Optimizing for the first time is rarely a good approach if you're working with those tools regularly, in my opinion.

tomc1985 8y ago

It is weird to hear developers say this. The tooling around your app is essential to understanding how it runs, why would someone not know this stuff?

sjf 8y ago
I don't know how to design an IC either...
- zymhan 8y ago
  You do if you're programming in assembly. Developers need to understand how the layer underneath their code works. If you're writing Java, you should understand the JVM. If you're writing C, you should understand the compiler.
  - stronglikedan 8y ago
    One layer, maybe, but should you be able to deploy any type of web server on every OS if you're writing a web app? I'm not so sure.
    - zymhan 8y ago
      > One layer Yes, that's why I said "layer beneath" and not "layerS beneath"
      - stronglikedan 8y ago
        Correct, which is why I was agreeing with you, but questioning the premise of a couple comments above yours. I.e., how far up the infrastructure stack should have developer the expected to know intimately?
oblio 8y ago
Because they don't care, what they're doing is good enough and at the end of the day they want to go home and enjoy what they like together with the loved ones. Shocking, truly :p I know this is a dirty thought, here on Hacker News.