4 ms·

Very good observation & totally agreed. In Germany, police is generally perceived as trustworthy, your "friend and helper" as the slogan goes. I was surprised

by FabHK 8y ago

Very good observation & totally agreed. In Germany, police is generally perceived as trustworthy, your "friend and helper" as the slogan goes. I was surprised by the antagonism and belligerence in the US. A few observations: * guns certainly play a big role, and the risk of escalation. * I wonder whether silly laws also play a role. For example: a 20 year old drinking alcohol, having a cold beer while watching a sunset on the beach, prostitution are all illegal if I'm not mistaken (or smoking a joint, depending on the state). So, in the US, the police might often be the killjoy. In Germany, those things are either officially legal, or in a gray area that the police ignores. So when the police comes on the scene, it's generally an actual crime or problem, and everyone is eager to help and cooperate and fix whatever real problem there is. In short, police have a relatively positive image. * My experience with the police in the US was much worse when I was on a bike than when I was in a nice BMW. The issues of power differential, authority, lawyers, confrontation seem to loom much larger in the US than I've perceived them in Germany. * With all these factors, employment with the police might seem a less attractive choice of work in the US than in northern Europe, so people with few other choices (or a penchant for exercising authority) might end up there more frequently than in other countries. This, in turn, could result in a downward cycle and a "besieged" mentality. At any rate, I'd much rather interact with police in Europe or Asia than the US.

rubyfan 8y ago
I agree with the sentiment, the United States is somewhat uptight especially when it comes to telling other people how to live their lives. Certainly this is a contributing factor. Minorities are also treated with extra scrutiny almost everywhere. Policing also varies greatly from locality to locality. I’ve know probably five police officers and all are great people and join the police to help, but I hate to say it many of them have anger or control issues. Personally I had an issue where I needed an ambulance to my house and trip to the ER. The police showed up along with the ambulance and an officer was in my house and looking around the house with a snooping eye. Even when there to help they are looking for signs of a crime.
bluejekyll 8y ago
All of these are definitely part of it, but we need to look more deeply at the economic realities of policing in the US to understand some of this. Read this article: https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ Police in many municipalities are not fully funded via taxes. Instead their revenues are maintained via tickets, fines, and property seizures. There are recent cases that have gone to the supreme court related to some of these issues: https://newrepublic.com/article/148013/will-supreme-court-rein-civil-forfeiture https://newrepublic.com/article/148013/will-supreme-court-re..., I don't believe this case has been heard yet. The point is, the police in the US have an economic necessity to pay their own salaries by fighting "crime". This incentivizes them in seizing property, prior to any conviction in court. Often the property is seized from people without the means to fight to get it back, and/or it's not worth the fight. This tactic of ticketing, fining and seizing property to pay for the police force, IMO, is the root cause of the issues between minorities and low income people and the police. In effect, the police need crime and will find crime, because they need to in order to earn their salaries.
- taneq 8y ago
  > Instead their revenues are maintained via tickets, fines, and property seizures. How can this be anything but a case of extreme moral hazard? They sound indistinguishable from the mob.
  - RankingMember 8y ago
    You're right on the money- it's a big problem that a lot of inertia will need to be overcome to solve.
  - LitFan 8y ago
    Americans hate to pay taxes. The "law abiding citizens" don't have to worry about these extra fines, as long as they go out of their way to avoid the police. Then they can convince themselves that it's only the "bad guys" that are being fined, and as a result they deserve the treatment.
odiroot 8y ago
Regarding Germany, I have a similar feeling. Granted, I'm not a citizen (just 4+ yrs expat), but usually when someone complains about police, they were/are up to no good. I just wish Berlin police would focus more on vandalism and awful parking in the city.
gambler 8y ago
There is a book on this. Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces. From what I've read, it's less about guns and more about certain historic precedents, training and organizational incentives.
BrandoElFollito 8y ago
This is very similar in France (as a rule, I am not taking into account some complicated areas). My children see the police as strongly positive figures. When I bike and do do some slightly illegal stuff (not crossing on a red light, rather avoiding some cars by slowly biking on a desert pavement) they would usually either stare to make their point (and I hop back on the road) or just ignore it. This is some kind of an unspoken agreement which has its limits. I had a case where they stopped me because they saw that I drove through a red light after waiting on the green one. What happened is that there was an old man slowly crossing on his red light (a desert small city on a Sunday afternoon, there was just us), I patiently waited and did not realize that the light changed right when I drove off (onto a roundabout, still deserted). They jokingly congratulated me for not driving over the pedestrian but would have gone full throttle should that have been a true danger and deliberate rules breaking (or a dangerous error).
vsl 8y ago
Uh. German (Bavarian) traffic police is well known for harassing Czech drivers. Exactly the sort of thing you might want this shortcut for.

by FabHK 8y ago

rubyfan 8y ago

I agree with the sentiment, the United States is somewhat uptight especially when it comes to telling other people how to live their lives. Certainly this is a contributing factor. Minorities are also treated with extra scrutiny almost everywhere. Policing also varies greatly from locality to locality. I’ve know probably five police officers and all are great people and join the police to help, but I hate to say it many of them have anger or control issues. Personally I had an issue where I needed an ambulance to my house and trip to the ER. The police showed up along with the ambulance and an officer was in my house and looking around the house with a snooping eye. Even when there to help they are looking for signs of a crime.

bluejekyll 8y ago

All of these are definitely part of it, but we need to look more deeply at the economic realities of policing in the US to understand some of this. Read this article: https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ Police in many municipalities are not fully funded via taxes. Instead their revenues are maintained via tickets, fines, and property seizures. There are recent cases that have gone to the supreme court related to some of these issues: https://newrepublic.com/article/148013/will-supreme-court-rein-civil-forfeiture https://newrepublic.com/article/148013/will-supreme-court-re..., I don't believe this case has been heard yet. The point is, the police in the US have an economic necessity to pay their own salaries by fighting "crime". This incentivizes them in seizing property, prior to any conviction in court. Often the property is seized from people without the means to fight to get it back, and/or it's not worth the fight. This tactic of ticketing, fining and seizing property to pay for the police force, IMO, is the root cause of the issues between minorities and low income people and the police. In effect, the police need crime and will find crime, because they need to in order to earn their salaries.

taneq 8y ago
> Instead their revenues are maintained via tickets, fines, and property seizures. How can this be anything but a case of extreme moral hazard? They sound indistinguishable from the mob.
- RankingMember 8y ago
  You're right on the money- it's a big problem that a lot of inertia will need to be overcome to solve.
- LitFan 8y ago
  Americans hate to pay taxes. The "law abiding citizens" don't have to worry about these extra fines, as long as they go out of their way to avoid the police. Then they can convince themselves that it's only the "bad guys" that are being fined, and as a result they deserve the treatment.

odiroot 8y ago

Regarding Germany, I have a similar feeling. Granted, I'm not a citizen (just 4+ yrs expat), but usually when someone complains about police, they were/are up to no good. I just wish Berlin police would focus more on vandalism and awful parking in the city.

gambler 8y ago

There is a book on this. Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces. From what I've read, it's less about guns and more about certain historic precedents, training and organizational incentives.

BrandoElFollito 8y ago

This is very similar in France (as a rule, I am not taking into account some complicated areas). My children see the police as strongly positive figures. When I bike and do do some slightly illegal stuff (not crossing on a red light, rather avoiding some cars by slowly biking on a desert pavement) they would usually either stare to make their point (and I hop back on the road) or just ignore it. This is some kind of an unspoken agreement which has its limits. I had a case where they stopped me because they saw that I drove through a red light after waiting on the green one. What happened is that there was an old man slowly crossing on his red light (a desert small city on a Sunday afternoon, there was just us), I patiently waited and did not realize that the light changed right when I drove off (onto a roundabout, still deserted). They jokingly congratulated me for not driving over the pedestrian but would have gone full throttle should that have been a true danger and deliberate rules breaking (or a dangerous error).

vsl 8y ago

Uh. German (Bavarian) traffic police is well known for harassing Czech drivers. Exactly the sort of thing you might want this shortcut for.