9 ms·

I personally wouldn't purchase a Model 3. I rented the long range version for a round-trip trip from San Francisco to Sacramento (about 90 miles/2 hours each wa

by xltk 8y ago

I personally wouldn't purchase a Model 3. I rented the long range version for a round-trip trip from San Francisco to Sacramento (about 90 miles/2 hours each way). The main things that stood out: - Changing volume and airflow through the central touchscreen were much more challenging than the physical knobs and buttons most cars have. I'd even argue they were distracting and dangerous to use while driving. I don't believe this was a learning curve issue. Having to accurately place your finger above a touch screen and repeatedly hit a plus button is an inferior experience to rotating a knob. - The self-driving ability has a long way to go before it is useful for anything except cruising on the freeway. In two separate instances, the car slowed at a stop sign down to 15mph before blowing through it (which could have been a non-cheap ticket that went on my record if a cop were around), and almost hit another car when two lanes merged into one. - The supercharging stations charge at a slower rate than advertised, and cost only a little less to use than filling up a car with unleaded gas. - The door handles are difficult to use. Maybe this is a learning curve issue, but pressing the handle in at the correct position takes more dexterity than simply pulling on a standard handle. The technology and presentation is impressive, but I felt the driving experience was subpar.

CarVac 8y ago
The door handles are probably a deliberate choice to get the drag down as low as possible, without the expense of motorized handles like the S or motorized doors like the X. No other cars on the road have drag coefficients as low as the Model 3 (or the Model S, for that matter). From what I've seen, Teslas are the only cars that have the B-pillar flush to the glass, and flush, cavity-less door handles. That plus the perfectly smooth underbody nose to tail is what gives the Teslas better range per battery capacity than other electrics.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > No other cars on the road have drag coefficients as low as the Model 3 (or the Model S, for that matter). The Model S is the fourth lowest at 0.24, tied with the Mercedes S class, behind the Model 3 at 0.23. But leading the pack are the Mercedes CLA (0.22) and the Volkswagen XL1 (0.19).
  - CarVac 8y ago
    I say that the XL1 doesn't count. I didn't count the EV1 either, which had the same drag coefficient. But TIL about the CLA. Note: the CLA was tested at 0.30 drag coefficient by Car and Driver, though.
    - FireBeyond 8y ago
      Why wouldn't the XL1 count? It's got a production run, albeit limited. Car and Driver's numbers for Cd are higher for everyone, it seems (though certainly the CLA was notably higher). Then again the new A class is quoted at 0.22.
      - CarVac 8y ago
        It doesn't count because they were able to change the form factor as they liked, whereas the Model S is a normal-looking sedan with fully exposed wheels.
        FireBeyond 8y ago
        Do you also not count the Insight? "That's not fair, they were -trying- to make it aerodynamic!" doesn't really fly as an argument.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        CarVac 8y ago
        It's more about the "not-normal"-ness. The Insight looks like a sporty coupe. The XL1 and EV1 look like pills.
        Latteland 8y ago
        I don't think the xl1 was every for sale, there were no dealers or sales. It shouldn't be counted.
- brownbat 8y ago
  I wonder if the gains would be significant if the regs allowed side mirrors to be replaced with cameras and a screen or projection onto the side windows.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    It would be a big gain in efficiency, and Tesla and a few other carmakers have been trying to talk regulators into allowing that for a few years now.
zaidos 8y ago
Unfortunately, it is not just Tesla that is moving controls over to touch screen. The latest Honda vehicles have moved the majority of knobs to a touch interface.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  This needs to be regulated against, in my opinion.
  - resters 8y ago
    It’s just bad UX. They will add some rotary encoders before long. No need to regulate it :)
    - xref 8y ago
      if it is still touchscreen only there's not much way to improve it, you'll have to watch the pane of glass and not the road since there's no tactile information.
      - hndamien 8y ago
        Tech for tactile feedback on touch screens exist today. https://www.theverge.com/ces/2017/1/5/14185134/tanvas-touchscreen-haptic-feedback-ces-2017 https://www.theverge.com/ces/2017/1/5/14185134/tanvas-touchs...
        hndamien 8y ago
        Not sure I understand the downvotes with no comment...? Maybe a video is more convincing... https://youtu.be/JelhR2iPuw0?t=17s https://youtu.be/JelhR2iPuw0?t=17s Or this from BMW....https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/15/bmws-holoactive-touch-in-car-interface-offers-tactile-feedback-on-a-floating-display/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/15/bmws-holoactive-touch-in-c... Or Ultrahaptics... https://www.ultrahaptics.com/ https://www.ultrahaptics.com/
myko 8y ago
> the car slowed at a stop sign down to 20mph before blowing through it Not sure if you know or not, but want to make this clear - the current Autopilot feature does NOT know how to stop at signs or lights. It really is just really good lane adherence, and even that can be sketchy (hopping lanes into oncoming traffic, sudden hard braking for no reason).
- muraiki 8y ago
  Wow, if there was ever a perfect example of someone misunderstanding what "Autopilot" does in a manner that could have killed somebody, this is it!
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    Can we stop calling the Tesla driver assistance package by its inaccurate brand name? It is harmful.
    - dunpeal 8y ago
      And maybe Tesla shouldn't give its features brand names that are inaccurate and put lives at risk?
      - stephengillie 8y ago
        If only our American government regulated every car's safety features.
    - King-Aaron 8y ago
      This is an interesting statement, because while I agree that it might be good to name it something else, the name 'autopilot' is not inaccurate. An autopilot system in an aircraft does not stop for pedestrians or stop signs. Nor does it completely fly the plane itself. The problem is that people don't understand what an autopilot does. But that's not something that should be argued around, when it wouldn't be a big exercise to name it something else.
vinnymac 8y ago
I think you have some good points here. Just wanted to point out that the audio can be controlled by the steering wheel, and they could easily add an update so that the air could be controlled by the same mechanism if they wanted to. I haven’t found that to be an issue personally, but if you drive one try it out.
- xltk 8y ago
  Thanks for the heads up, I'll give that a try next time I drive one.
sabareesh 8y ago
I had the car since March and I would say will never go back to ICE car and may be not even other electric car. I am most impressed by the simplicity of the interior, once start driving i never had a need to touch the screen, all the above seems silly, autopilot is only meant for cruising in freeway for now.
SEJeff 8y ago
The left scrollwheel on the steering wheel handles volume.
illumin8 8y ago
The audio system's volume controls have a physical knob - it's on the left of the steering wheel. You can change volume up and down, just like almost any car with audio controls on the steering wheel, except it's a dial, unlike a lot of cars that just have volume +/- button.
- xltk 8y ago
  Actually stop and go traffic on the freeway is about the only thing I found "Autopilot" to be useful for. I stand corrected on the physical control for volume. There is no physical control for airflow as far as I know. "Almost everything" feels like a stretch, but you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.
ghouse 8y ago
Superchargers in CA cost $0.25/kWh. The model 3 averages <300 Wh/mi, or $0.075/mi (when charged by a CA Supercharger). Gas in CA is also expensive -- $3.64/gallon in San Jose. Assuming a comparable car to the model 3 (A BMW 335 is 32MPG, and a 540 is 29 MPG on the highway), or $0.11-0.13/mi which is between 52 and 67% more expensive per mile that a model 3 charged with a Supercharger. If you charge at home, overnight, you pay about $0.125/kWh, which extends the operating cost advantage further.
- xltk 8y ago
  I paid $15.34 for 59 kWh ($0.26/kWh according to the receipt), which at the conversion rate you describe of 3mi/kWh comes out to 177 miles. Using your example of 32mpg and $3.64/gallon, 177 miles would cost $20.13. So roughly 25% cheaper for the supercharger vs gas. Bear in mind filling up gas takes five minutes whereas the supercharger took over two hours. Good point about charging at home overnight though.
  - davidgould 8y ago
    The model 3 does quite a bit better than 3 mi/kWh typically.
- majewsky 8y ago
  > Gas in CA is also expensive -- $3.64/gallon in San Jose. Tangential: I'm always baffled that Americans consider prices like this expensive. In Germany, gas goes for €1.20-€1.50 per liter (which is $5.22-$6.52 per gallon).
  - bebna 8y ago
    Where do you get those prices? Since months[1] it is more like 1.45-1.60€/l ($6.311-$6.964/gal) for regular petrol. In 1.519€/l($6.611/gal) are 0.8678€/l($3.777/gal) taxes[2]. What they see as a expensive price, we only pay to the fiskus alone! [1] https://ich-tanke.de/statistik/ https://ich-tanke.de/statistik/ [2] https://service.aral.de/netto-spritpreise https://service.aral.de/netto-spritpreise
Latteland 8y ago
You needed to do at least read the minimal manual provided in the car's screen or on the web at tesla.com. Autopilot does not stop at stop signs or for people. You can't use it to drive the car when you are drunk. It's not for merging lanes. The things it does are following lanes as they curve, slowing down on curves, and detecting a car in front of you and slowing down. They have demonstrated other things, but it's not a full autopilot. The volume can be controlled by the spinning dials in the steering wheel. The supercharging stations charge just as they were advertised. When the car is mostly empty, they charge faster, and as the battery is more full they have to slow down the charging rate. This is how they are defined to work. The door handles are slightly difficult to use. It's not for everyone, and it's no crime not to like some things about it. But using the autopilot without understanding it's limitations could have lead to death for someone.
- xltk 8y ago
  Neither the onboard screen nor the person I was renting from made clear the limitations you describe. If the limitations are indeed that dangerous, more effort should be made to make them abundantly clear instead of requiring a user to search for them. Furthermore, the brand name of the technology is "Autopilot" and the copy from Tesla’s own website is as follows: "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars. All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver" Based on my experience, that sentence is extremely misleading. I stand corrected on physical controls for volume. No such controls exist for airflow as far as I know. Regarding supercharging times, both the renter and other sources I've read online cite a full charge (over 300 miles) taking 75 - 80 minutes. I got 59 kWh (about 200 miles at a conversion rate of 3.25 miles/kWh) in 2+ hours of charging.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    I agree with you that they should be much more explicit about this autopilot stuff and the name autopilot is very misleading. The other thing they say on their website (https://www.tesla.com/AUTOPILOT?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/AUTOPILOT?redirect=no) is this longish quote: "Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available". But I can imagine you are just in the car and you don't have immediate access to that. A normal car's cruise control doesn't steer on most cars, and people don't expect it to. Because of all the hype around teslas its not surprising that you could think it could do all that stuff. But it's not trivial to turn on the autopilot, did you get that from the person who gave you the car? I think they could have explained it. I'm happy that you were not hurt nor was anyone else. Tesla could be more explicit about this. I guess it's another thing that you learn from experience, and they do talk about it but it's not obvious but when the car is more full, they charge the batteries at a slower rate, they can only charge them at a rate based on how close they are to full. I know that's confusing, that's just how they work. If you use the trip planner in the car, it will route you through the super chargers and tell you how long to stay at each one and what the likely % of charge will be. I traveled from Seattle to Banff and the superchargers have been placed at a good distance apart so that I never need to charge more than about 75%. I hope if you ever try another EV that the people renting it to you provide proper instructions so that you can drive it safely.
specialist 8y ago
"...I felt the driving experience was subpar." I test drove a BMW i3 (via ReachNow). I was piqued by Sandy Munro's tear down of both the i3 and Tesla 3. My first electric car (bigger than a golf cart). I hated it. The regenerative breaking felt all wrong. I thought something was wrong with the car, like I had left the brakes on. Worse, I'm used to coasting on the highway. And the i3 requires active acceleration. My conclusion is that I'll have to relearn how to drive. My transition from ICE to EV will be comparable to moving from manual to automatic transmission. (Gods, I miss manual transmissions. My left foot still doesn't know what it's supposed to be doing.)

by xltk 8y ago

CarVac 8y ago

The door handles are probably a deliberate choice to get the drag down as low as possible, without the expense of motorized handles like the S or motorized doors like the X. No other cars on the road have drag coefficients as low as the Model 3 (or the Model S, for that matter). From what I've seen, Teslas are the only cars that have the B-pillar flush to the glass, and flush, cavity-less door handles. That plus the perfectly smooth underbody nose to tail is what gives the Teslas better range per battery capacity than other electrics.

FireBeyond 8y ago
> No other cars on the road have drag coefficients as low as the Model 3 (or the Model S, for that matter). The Model S is the fourth lowest at 0.24, tied with the Mercedes S class, behind the Model 3 at 0.23. But leading the pack are the Mercedes CLA (0.22) and the Volkswagen XL1 (0.19).
- CarVac 8y ago
  I say that the XL1 doesn't count. I didn't count the EV1 either, which had the same drag coefficient. But TIL about the CLA. Note: the CLA was tested at 0.30 drag coefficient by Car and Driver, though.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    Why wouldn't the XL1 count? It's got a production run, albeit limited. Car and Driver's numbers for Cd are higher for everyone, it seems (though certainly the CLA was notably higher). Then again the new A class is quoted at 0.22.
    - CarVac 8y ago
      It doesn't count because they were able to change the form factor as they liked, whereas the Model S is a normal-looking sedan with fully exposed wheels.
      - FireBeyond 8y ago
        Do you also not count the Insight? "That's not fair, they were -trying- to make it aerodynamic!" doesn't really fly as an argument.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        CarVac 8y ago
        It's more about the "not-normal"-ness. The Insight looks like a sporty coupe. The XL1 and EV1 look like pills.
        Latteland 8y ago
        I don't think the xl1 was every for sale, there were no dealers or sales. It shouldn't be counted.
brownbat 8y ago
I wonder if the gains would be significant if the regs allowed side mirrors to be replaced with cameras and a screen or projection onto the side windows.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  It would be a big gain in efficiency, and Tesla and a few other carmakers have been trying to talk regulators into allowing that for a few years now.

zaidos 8y ago

Unfortunately, it is not just Tesla that is moving controls over to touch screen. The latest Honda vehicles have moved the majority of knobs to a touch interface.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
This needs to be regulated against, in my opinion.
- resters 8y ago
  It’s just bad UX. They will add some rotary encoders before long. No need to regulate it :)
  - xref 8y ago
    if it is still touchscreen only there's not much way to improve it, you'll have to watch the pane of glass and not the road since there's no tactile information.
    - hndamien 8y ago
      Tech for tactile feedback on touch screens exist today. https://www.theverge.com/ces/2017/1/5/14185134/tanvas-touchscreen-haptic-feedback-ces-2017 https://www.theverge.com/ces/2017/1/5/14185134/tanvas-touchs...
      - hndamien 8y ago
        Not sure I understand the downvotes with no comment...? Maybe a video is more convincing... https://youtu.be/JelhR2iPuw0?t=17s https://youtu.be/JelhR2iPuw0?t=17s Or this from BMW....https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/15/bmws-holoactive-touch-in-car-interface-offers-tactile-feedback-on-a-floating-display/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/15/bmws-holoactive-touch-in-c... Or Ultrahaptics... https://www.ultrahaptics.com/ https://www.ultrahaptics.com/

myko 8y ago

> the car slowed at a stop sign down to 20mph before blowing through it Not sure if you know or not, but want to make this clear - the current Autopilot feature does NOT know how to stop at signs or lights. It really is just really good lane adherence, and even that can be sketchy (hopping lanes into oncoming traffic, sudden hard braking for no reason).

muraiki 8y ago
Wow, if there was ever a perfect example of someone misunderstanding what "Autopilot" does in a manner that could have killed somebody, this is it!
- stephengillie 8y ago
  Can we stop calling the Tesla driver assistance package by its inaccurate brand name? It is harmful.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    And maybe Tesla shouldn't give its features brand names that are inaccurate and put lives at risk?
    - stephengillie 8y ago
      If only our American government regulated every car's safety features.
  - King-Aaron 8y ago
    This is an interesting statement, because while I agree that it might be good to name it something else, the name 'autopilot' is not inaccurate. An autopilot system in an aircraft does not stop for pedestrians or stop signs. Nor does it completely fly the plane itself. The problem is that people don't understand what an autopilot does. But that's not something that should be argued around, when it wouldn't be a big exercise to name it something else.

vinnymac 8y ago

I think you have some good points here. Just wanted to point out that the audio can be controlled by the steering wheel, and they could easily add an update so that the air could be controlled by the same mechanism if they wanted to. I haven’t found that to be an issue personally, but if you drive one try it out.

xltk 8y ago
Thanks for the heads up, I'll give that a try next time I drive one.

sabareesh 8y ago

I had the car since March and I would say will never go back to ICE car and may be not even other electric car. I am most impressed by the simplicity of the interior, once start driving i never had a need to touch the screen, all the above seems silly, autopilot is only meant for cruising in freeway for now.

SEJeff 8y ago

The left scrollwheel on the steering wheel handles volume.

illumin8 8y ago

The audio system's volume controls have a physical knob - it's on the left of the steering wheel. You can change volume up and down, just like almost any car with audio controls on the steering wheel, except it's a dial, unlike a lot of cars that just have volume +/- button.

xltk 8y ago
Actually stop and go traffic on the freeway is about the only thing I found "Autopilot" to be useful for. I stand corrected on the physical control for volume. There is no physical control for airflow as far as I know. "Almost everything" feels like a stretch, but you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

ghouse 8y ago

Superchargers in CA cost $0.25/kWh. The model 3 averages <300 Wh/mi, or $0.075/mi (when charged by a CA Supercharger). Gas in CA is also expensive -- $3.64/gallon in San Jose. Assuming a comparable car to the model 3 (A BMW 335 is 32MPG, and a 540 is 29 MPG on the highway), or $0.11-0.13/mi which is between 52 and 67% more expensive per mile that a model 3 charged with a Supercharger. If you charge at home, overnight, you pay about $0.125/kWh, which extends the operating cost advantage further.

xltk 8y ago
I paid $15.34 for 59 kWh ($0.26/kWh according to the receipt), which at the conversion rate you describe of 3mi/kWh comes out to 177 miles. Using your example of 32mpg and $3.64/gallon, 177 miles would cost $20.13. So roughly 25% cheaper for the supercharger vs gas. Bear in mind filling up gas takes five minutes whereas the supercharger took over two hours. Good point about charging at home overnight though.
- davidgould 8y ago
  The model 3 does quite a bit better than 3 mi/kWh typically.
majewsky 8y ago
> Gas in CA is also expensive -- $3.64/gallon in San Jose. Tangential: I'm always baffled that Americans consider prices like this expensive. In Germany, gas goes for €1.20-€1.50 per liter (which is $5.22-$6.52 per gallon).
- bebna 8y ago
  Where do you get those prices? Since months[1] it is more like 1.45-1.60€/l ($6.311-$6.964/gal) for regular petrol. In 1.519€/l($6.611/gal) are 0.8678€/l($3.777/gal) taxes[2]. What they see as a expensive price, we only pay to the fiskus alone! [1] https://ich-tanke.de/statistik/ https://ich-tanke.de/statistik/ [2] https://service.aral.de/netto-spritpreise https://service.aral.de/netto-spritpreise

Latteland 8y ago

You needed to do at least read the minimal manual provided in the car's screen or on the web at tesla.com. Autopilot does not stop at stop signs or for people. You can't use it to drive the car when you are drunk. It's not for merging lanes. The things it does are following lanes as they curve, slowing down on curves, and detecting a car in front of you and slowing down. They have demonstrated other things, but it's not a full autopilot. The volume can be controlled by the spinning dials in the steering wheel. The supercharging stations charge just as they were advertised. When the car is mostly empty, they charge faster, and as the battery is more full they have to slow down the charging rate. This is how they are defined to work. The door handles are slightly difficult to use. It's not for everyone, and it's no crime not to like some things about it. But using the autopilot without understanding it's limitations could have lead to death for someone.

xltk 8y ago
Neither the onboard screen nor the person I was renting from made clear the limitations you describe. If the limitations are indeed that dangerous, more effort should be made to make them abundantly clear instead of requiring a user to search for them. Furthermore, the brand name of the technology is "Autopilot" and the copy from Tesla’s own website is as follows: "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars. All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver" Based on my experience, that sentence is extremely misleading. I stand corrected on physical controls for volume. No such controls exist for airflow as far as I know. Regarding supercharging times, both the renter and other sources I've read online cite a full charge (over 300 miles) taking 75 - 80 minutes. I got 59 kWh (about 200 miles at a conversion rate of 3.25 miles/kWh) in 2+ hours of charging.
- Latteland 8y ago
  I agree with you that they should be much more explicit about this autopilot stuff and the name autopilot is very misleading. The other thing they say on their website (https://www.tesla.com/AUTOPILOT?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/AUTOPILOT?redirect=no) is this longish quote: "Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available". But I can imagine you are just in the car and you don't have immediate access to that. A normal car's cruise control doesn't steer on most cars, and people don't expect it to. Because of all the hype around teslas its not surprising that you could think it could do all that stuff. But it's not trivial to turn on the autopilot, did you get that from the person who gave you the car? I think they could have explained it. I'm happy that you were not hurt nor was anyone else. Tesla could be more explicit about this. I guess it's another thing that you learn from experience, and they do talk about it but it's not obvious but when the car is more full, they charge the batteries at a slower rate, they can only charge them at a rate based on how close they are to full. I know that's confusing, that's just how they work. If you use the trip planner in the car, it will route you through the super chargers and tell you how long to stay at each one and what the likely % of charge will be. I traveled from Seattle to Banff and the superchargers have been placed at a good distance apart so that I never need to charge more than about 75%. I hope if you ever try another EV that the people renting it to you provide proper instructions so that you can drive it safely.

specialist 8y ago

"...I felt the driving experience was subpar." I test drove a BMW i3 (via ReachNow). I was piqued by Sandy Munro's tear down of both the i3 and Tesla 3. My first electric car (bigger than a golf cart). I hated it. The regenerative breaking felt all wrong. I thought something was wrong with the car, like I had left the brakes on. Worse, I'm used to coasting on the highway. And the i3 requires active acceleration. My conclusion is that I'll have to relearn how to drive. My transition from ICE to EV will be comparable to moving from manual to automatic transmission. (Gods, I miss manual transmissions. My left foot still doesn't know what it's supposed to be doing.)