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> I gave up trying [...] that’s all I can do That's unfortunate that you feel this way. Quite frequently the ones I see succeed aren't the best at their tech e

> I gave up trying [...] that’s all I can do That's unfortunate that you feel this way. Quite frequently the ones I see succeed aren't the best at their tech either (be it their focused field or general tech). Tech VCs gravitate towards tech people. Surely that is obvious and you shouldn't give up after only consulting them. Let them solve things the only way they know how, and maybe you can find someone else to take a different approach with your ideas. Or maybe not. You shouldn't feel so slighted/jaded by it though. We all feel our ideas, be they ones proven in other scenarios or not, are workable.

jelliclesfarm 8y ago
Thank you.I am just collecting information and data and general trends now. And I am noting down what fails and what has succeeded. I feel like this might take longer but I am not failing on my dime. Perhaps that’s a good thing because I would have never thought about IoT or blockchain 4 years ago, but now I see how it can be implemented under the umbrella of Agtech. We need an ecosystem of sorts. And we need to be able to scale up as well as down. And we need solutions for 30 years down the line. One thing I find striking is that tech coming out is solving problems of today. But what good is that? I want to be able to predict how land availability and lack of water or climate change or labour shortage will affect me in the future so I can get ahead with a method that will eventually merge with the future painlessly. But I have also met some very helpful people in the industry who are more than happy to share or at least hear me out. There is enormous value in having people from other disciplines and others who are not farmers to be sounding board. I also know that including us has some value. By ‘us’, I mean smallholder farm operators and the farm workers. In big industrialized farms, it’s already mechanized and it’s just one step away from automation. They pain point is availability of labour.(and to a certain extent, regulation in California..dont know about other states) But in smaller farms, we are talking the difference between breaking even and loss. Especially if we are organic because we don’t spray and can’t have huge machinery. And labour is our biggest cost. Not availability of labour, but the cost of labour. Small scale farm bots are needed. They can scale. Massive autonomous tractors meant to 1000 acres of corn and soy is useless to us. I feel a kinship with the Lilliputian scale of indoor farming. I get it. I am also inspired by it. But outside, we got sunshine. And it’s free. Nothing is cheaper than free!
- mmt 8y ago
  > And labour is our biggest cost > But outside, we got sunshine. And it’s free. Nothing is cheaper than free! Would simulated and/or pumped-in sunshine cost more than (or even a significan fraction of) the labor? If not, that seems similar to the sunk-cost fallacy, substituting "free" for "already paid for".
  - jelliclesfarm 8y ago
    The former is for small acreage outdoor farms(biggest cost is labour when available) vs the latter which is for indoor farms with artificial light(can be automated. Light,energy are their biggest cost).
    - mmt 8y ago
      I don't doubt it, but it still doesn't quite answer my question. (The answer may seem obvious to an industry insider but likely to anyone else). If labor costs, for any comparably-sized farm, dwarf artificial light [1] costs, then it would be a form of "penny wise, pound foolish" to opt for free light if it means incurring the labor cost. This is true, even if each is the biggest single cost in each scenario. [1] Even that needn't be 100% artificial, since windows and skylights exist, though, again, my ignorance as an outsider may preclude me from realizing something that might be obvious to an insider, like this option not moving the needle on cost.
      - jelliclesfarm 8y ago
        I am not sure I understand. Let me rephrase your question to me as I understand it now: On one hand, there is a regular farm with farm labour and natural sun light. A traditional calendar picture farm. A tractor, some workers, rows of crops, red barn etc. On the other hand, there is an automated indoor farm with artificial lights. Are these the two scenarios that are being compared? I agree that indoor farming will likely seem more profitable even though lighting costs money. But it doesn’t happen that way because of 1. economies of scale. https://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/52/c9/52c99335-fcc8-44fe-9ce0-6a0bd5fbe006/2017headlettuce-final_-_5-25-2017.pdf https://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/52/c9/5... : UC Davis cost studies for lettuce. https://www.freightfarms.com/income-projection#proformabody-december17 https://www.freightfarms.com/income-projection#proformabody-... : freight farms income projection. Look at comment sections to gauge reception https://www.agrilyst.com/stateofindoorfarming2017/ https://www.agrilyst.com/stateofindoorfarming2017/ : agrilyst compilation of indoor economics. No one is named. https://www.scribd.com/document/318543132/10A-Dr-T-Kozai-Plant-Factory-APO-20160630-pdf https://www.scribd.com/document/318543132/10A-Dr-T-Kozai-Pla... : Japanese Prof.Kozai sharing their insights. Very helpful. 2. While indoor farming is being tinkered around with..someone still has to keep supplying lettuce to the Walmarts and Whole Foods and Safeway’s and Kroger’s and restaurants and consumers. 3. Right now, the advantage of outdoor lettuce farming is legacy. California lettuce companies have been doing it for so long that they have perfected it to an art form. But regulations are strangling and water is disappearing. Soon labour too. And it’s getging expensive. They do the best they can. They give medical, 15-27/hour including benefits, breaks, overtime and some even provide housing. But it’s not going to be sustainable because the public still wants cheap food. Even if indoor systems are automated, the jury is still out there if it would be profitable. Also..indoor plant specialists would want 60-120k. The Joses and Eduardos and Marias employed in the field demand much less. Make of this what you may...I am just throwing light on current ground reality. I have NO solutions or recommendations. These are bigger problems. I do know that food security is important. Local food supply is crucial for this. Food should be reasonably priced for everyone. Farming should be financially viable and sustainable for young farmers to keep doing what they do best. My solution is small farm robotics. Outdoors. Because I am not an indoor farmer. I only read about it. Perhaps there are other ways to deal with it but I am not equipped to comment more. I understand large scale production but I haven’t worked in it. Everyone is an employee in a corporate farm. I am a farm owner and a farm worker in my farm. So it’s worlds apart.

jelliclesfarm 8y ago

Thank you.I am just collecting information and data and general trends now. And I am noting down what fails and what has succeeded. I feel like this might take longer but I am not failing on my dime. Perhaps that’s a good thing because I would have never thought about IoT or blockchain 4 years ago, but now I see how it can be implemented under the umbrella of Agtech. We need an ecosystem of sorts. And we need to be able to scale up as well as down. And we need solutions for 30 years down the line. One thing I find striking is that tech coming out is solving problems of today. But what good is that? I want to be able to predict how land availability and lack of water or climate change or labour shortage will affect me in the future so I can get ahead with a method that will eventually merge with the future painlessly. But I have also met some very helpful people in the industry who are more than happy to share or at least hear me out. There is enormous value in having people from other disciplines and others who are not farmers to be sounding board. I also know that including us has some value. By ‘us’, I mean smallholder farm operators and the farm workers. In big industrialized farms, it’s already mechanized and it’s just one step away from automation. They pain point is availability of labour.(and to a certain extent, regulation in California..dont know about other states) But in smaller farms, we are talking the difference between breaking even and loss. Especially if we are organic because we don’t spray and can’t have huge machinery. And labour is our biggest cost. Not availability of labour, but the cost of labour. Small scale farm bots are needed. They can scale. Massive autonomous tractors meant to 1000 acres of corn and soy is useless to us. I feel a kinship with the Lilliputian scale of indoor farming. I get it. I am also inspired by it. But outside, we got sunshine. And it’s free. Nothing is cheaper than free!

mmt 8y ago
> And labour is our biggest cost > But outside, we got sunshine. And it’s free. Nothing is cheaper than free! Would simulated and/or pumped-in sunshine cost more than (or even a significan fraction of) the labor? If not, that seems similar to the sunk-cost fallacy, substituting "free" for "already paid for".
- jelliclesfarm 8y ago
  The former is for small acreage outdoor farms(biggest cost is labour when available) vs the latter which is for indoor farms with artificial light(can be automated. Light,energy are their biggest cost).
  - mmt 8y ago
    I don't doubt it, but it still doesn't quite answer my question. (The answer may seem obvious to an industry insider but likely to anyone else). If labor costs, for any comparably-sized farm, dwarf artificial light [1] costs, then it would be a form of "penny wise, pound foolish" to opt for free light if it means incurring the labor cost. This is true, even if each is the biggest single cost in each scenario. [1] Even that needn't be 100% artificial, since windows and skylights exist, though, again, my ignorance as an outsider may preclude me from realizing something that might be obvious to an insider, like this option not moving the needle on cost.
    - jelliclesfarm 8y ago
      I am not sure I understand. Let me rephrase your question to me as I understand it now: On one hand, there is a regular farm with farm labour and natural sun light. A traditional calendar picture farm. A tractor, some workers, rows of crops, red barn etc. On the other hand, there is an automated indoor farm with artificial lights. Are these the two scenarios that are being compared? I agree that indoor farming will likely seem more profitable even though lighting costs money. But it doesn’t happen that way because of 1. economies of scale. https://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/52/c9/52c99335-fcc8-44fe-9ce0-6a0bd5fbe006/2017headlettuce-final_-_5-25-2017.pdf https://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/52/c9/5... : UC Davis cost studies for lettuce. https://www.freightfarms.com/income-projection#proformabody-december17 https://www.freightfarms.com/income-projection#proformabody-... : freight farms income projection. Look at comment sections to gauge reception https://www.agrilyst.com/stateofindoorfarming2017/ https://www.agrilyst.com/stateofindoorfarming2017/ : agrilyst compilation of indoor economics. No one is named. https://www.scribd.com/document/318543132/10A-Dr-T-Kozai-Plant-Factory-APO-20160630-pdf https://www.scribd.com/document/318543132/10A-Dr-T-Kozai-Pla... : Japanese Prof.Kozai sharing their insights. Very helpful. 2. While indoor farming is being tinkered around with..someone still has to keep supplying lettuce to the Walmarts and Whole Foods and Safeway’s and Kroger’s and restaurants and consumers. 3. Right now, the advantage of outdoor lettuce farming is legacy. California lettuce companies have been doing it for so long that they have perfected it to an art form. But regulations are strangling and water is disappearing. Soon labour too. And it’s getging expensive. They do the best they can. They give medical, 15-27/hour including benefits, breaks, overtime and some even provide housing. But it’s not going to be sustainable because the public still wants cheap food. Even if indoor systems are automated, the jury is still out there if it would be profitable. Also..indoor plant specialists would want 60-120k. The Joses and Eduardos and Marias employed in the field demand much less. Make of this what you may...I am just throwing light on current ground reality. I have NO solutions or recommendations. These are bigger problems. I do know that food security is important. Local food supply is crucial for this. Food should be reasonably priced for everyone. Farming should be financially viable and sustainable for young farmers to keep doing what they do best. My solution is small farm robotics. Outdoors. Because I am not an indoor farmer. I only read about it. Perhaps there are other ways to deal with it but I am not equipped to comment more. I understand large scale production but I haven’t worked in it. Everyone is an employee in a corporate farm. I am a farm owner and a farm worker in my farm. So it’s worlds apart.