8 ms·

Psychedelic Mushrooms Are Closer to Medicinal Use

jrowley 8y ago
If you are interested in learning more about psychedelics, and their context in 2018, I'd recommend UC Berkeley Professor Michael Pollan's latest book "How to Change Your Mind". It is a really nice, easy to read primer on the topic, and his experience with psychedelics. He approaches the topic with a scientific yet accessible tone, and he asks and answers lots of good questions. Pollan interviews many of the people mentioned in this New York Times article. Go put your name on the list at your local library! https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-Transcendence/dp/1594204225 https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-Transc...
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  Definitely a cool dude. I've watched his cooking show on Netflix a couple of days ago, his philosophy impressed me and I've found out about his books too. Didn't know he also is a Berkeley professor.
- arthurcolle 8y ago
  I second this recommendation. it's a well thought out and well-organized exposé of this topic. Could be tightened up a bit, but the prose makes a pretty inpenetrable topic quite accessible
- Reedx 8y ago
  He also gave a great talk about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmZSFvhL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmZSFvhL0 Well worth a watch for anyone even remotely interested in the topic.
  - jrowley 8y ago
    This talk is excellent, and I've already read the book. Thanks for sharing!
- parondea 8y ago
  I just finished the book and would recommend it to those who are interested in the long history of psychedelic research and the future of it. However, I think most of what I took from the book can be captured on the few podcasts he's been interviewed on. Specifically his chats with Tyler Cowen [1] and Kevin Rose [2] were particularly interesting. [1] https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/michael-pollan-tyler-cowen-nature-euphoria-food-22145fd728a2 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/michael-pollan-t... [2] https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Michael-Pollan https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Michael-Pollan
- yboris 8y ago
  I third this recommendation! I listened to it in audio book form -- narrated by the author himself -- a real pleasure!
apo 8y ago
Zooming out a bit, the legislation designed to stamp out the 60s and 70s counterculture is slowly being dismantled, brick by brick. https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/ https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/
fithisux 8y ago
There was an article about poisonus mushrooms that fight cancer as a chemo. Any news?
jrowley 8y ago
If you dig up the actual paper, you can see cool graphs about rhesus monkeys self administering psychedelics in test environments. (fig 1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390818302296?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839081...
qwerty456127 8y ago
They should also consider psilacetin (4-AcO-DMT) then - it's similar to the natural mushroom psilocybin but doesn't cause nausea.
- tasty_freeze 8y ago
  psilocybin isn't the main cause of the nausea, but the mushroom that contains it.
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    I thought the nausea was caused by the Psilocin binding to the serotonin receptors near your stomach, no?
tibbon 8y ago
I don't know how the government can claim with a straight face that these substances have no known medical use, and are harmful. That's the criteria I think for Schedule 1, but there are clearly known uses for them, and the harm is relatively low. I really don't like thinking, "the government just wants to ban dangerous thoughts" but mushrooms - really? Compared to alcohol they are so incredibly safe.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Institutional inertia is one hell of a drug. Even putting aside the sinister motivations people are often very reluctant to change even in the face of major evidence - especially if it undermines their self worth to admit being wrong.
  - loceng 8y ago
    Institutional inertia reminds me of the process of indoctrination, learned through memorization and not through experience and critical thinking. It's true too, that this process can result in good people with no sinister motivations falling into certain traps.
- turtlecloud 8y ago
  I do think the government knows that they are harmful. The main fear I think comes from the majority of people who are not that bright and can not cognitively handle the type of thinking that comes from psychedelic use. Imagine if you just listened to the gov your whole life and then after taking psychedelics u start questioning what is good/bad , what is true/false. Before you know it, flat earth theory is real.
  - 09bjb 8y ago
    Personally I'd be willing to risk open-mindedness spreading to people in society that "might not be able to handle it" rather than slide further into a dystopia where we're kept stupid on purpose because we might be harder to control if we thought for ourselves.
psythrow 8y ago
I have a friend who used to be quite involved in the ayahuasca church. He now knows five people from the church who have committed suicide. The fifth just hung himself last weekend. He was 25, and was the son of one of the priestesses in the church. Spent his childhood in the church, being fed ayahuasca regularly. One of them was also a friend of mine. By the time he killed himself he was clinically insane and should have been hospitalized, sadly the services didn't get to him in time. I realise this is about psylocibin, but I think its still appropriate here. Psychedelics are no joke.
- semireg 8y ago
  What is the ayahuasca church? I’m not familiar.
  - cypherpunks01 8y ago
    In the USA, it might refer to UDV (União do Vegetal) http://udvusa.org/ http://udvusa.org/
  - psythrow 8y ago
    Santo Daime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime)
- etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
  I think it is a selection effect, it takes a special kind of person to want to do ayahuasca all the time. Or any more mind altering drug. Normal well adjusted people don't use drugs to excess. Maybe a little here and there.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Do you think that heavy psychedelic use is what caused them to commit suicide, or do you think that these people had their own inner demons, which they tried to combat with psychedelics? In my experience a lot of people with their own issues are drawn to psychedelics as a means managing their demons. In the right setting, they can be incredibly healing. However, for some people, psychedelics become a means of coping, tripping becomes their default state and reality becomes too much for them.
09bjb 8y ago
Psilocybin and LSD are on their way to legalization, but the enormous host of compounds in their phenethylamine family might not be so lucky due to a systematic problem with U.S. drug scheduling policy. This family shows enormous potential for treating some of our trickiest mental health / public health problems (addiction, depression, anxiety, OCD, and the list goes on) but the policy for newly discovered phenethylamines and tryptamines seems to be "Schedule first, worry about it later." This slows scientific research down dramatically, research that we need in order to even know in the first place whether a compound might have "high potential for abuse and no known medical potential." If there is medical potential (and in these families at least there usually is), what took days to Schedule will take millions of dollars and years or even decades to reschedule...per compound. So, while I celebrate the progress being made for a couple of promising compounds with a relatively large base of recognition and support, I'm hoping that I see a more sane approach to drug policy within my lifetime (Portugal seems to be the fashionable example these days). I'll also second /u/jrowley 's recommendation of Michael Pollan's recent book "How to Change Your Mind" as a good primer, and would recommend the TV show "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia" as another fascinating dive into the subject.
goodroot 8y ago
Psychedelic mushrooms are powerful medicine. They have a psychoactive effect which alters brain chemistry and helps neurological disorder. We can see that in the paper. But then so do anti-depressants. I believe the key difference between plant medicines like mushrooms, Peyote, Ayahuasca and others and clinical mood altering medicine is within the ecstatic experience. It is one to thing to have a pill lead you to an empirically more "healthy" brain. It is quite another to embark on a deep, introspective vision which provides a narrative to match the chemical benefit. I volunteer as a guide within Ayahuasca ceremonies in Peru. Many turn to Ayahuasca as a last resort for depression, PTSD, sexual trauma, and much more. I have seen people in ceremony live through what they interpret as a hellish exorcism, an active exploration of their lineage, or a direct confrontation and resolution of their deepest emotional and spiritual trauma. These people often undergo significant positive transformation after the experiences. These profoundly "real" experiences appear to be essential to the healing process. We are creatures of story and psychedelics can help write a _most radical_ chapter of recovery.
- DenisM 8y ago
  How bad are the bad trips? And how often they appear?
  - 09bjb 8y ago
    Your best resource here is probably https://erowid.org/experiences/ https://erowid.org/experiences/
  - goodroot 8y ago
    Trips often elevate beyond dualistic thinking. Common dualistic spectrums include good and bad, light and dark, heaven and hell, wet or dry, dead or alive, human and non-human, space or time... The experiences are ineffable and unlike anything perceived by prior physical sense. The integrative aspect - taking the ecstatic vision and letting it into daily life - is an ongoing process which often takes up to a year. And so good or bad is too simplistic a lens in which to judge the psychedelic experience. Moments of sheer terror, perceiving the blackest of black, are common. So too are moments of pure bliss and the sensation of limitless loving grace. These become trivialized by the overall experience, which is powerful enough to fully reorient a person's understanding of what it means to be a human being. The result depends heavily on the pre-existing mental framework that engages with the medicine. For example, people from traditional western religious backgrounds may manifest demons, angels, and heaven and hell within their experiences -- if that is what _they feel they need to experience_ in order to realize the intention that they have brought with them into the ceremony. My personal view revolves around the entrenchment of an individual's ego. Those who meditate and who have comfort with nondualistic thinking tend to ride the wave better than those who have very rigid conceptions of their self identity and its resultant patterning. A rewarding read was the academic 'Antipodes of the Mind', a phenomenological study from cognitive scientist Benny Shannon. It is the most rigourous resource that addresses the wondrous weirdness of the Ayahuasca experience.
tchrowaway15123 8y ago
Warning: anecdotes ahead. I would like to add some counterpoint to the otherwise seemingly endless supply of HN enthusiasm for psychedelics. Personally, I like psychedelics. I have an annual(ish) tradition of tripping somewhere really pretty. I think that the personal growth and emotional... trip is fun and worthwhile. However, my girlfriend had a bad trip and was scared of large trees for months. And I'd rate my girlfriend as one of the most mentally stable people I have ever met. I am unconvinced that throwing psychedelics at mentally unstable (unhealthy) people is a good idea. We need a lot more research before we start recommending them as medicine. To that end, I do believe that we should allow researchers greater flexibility to experiment with them because it would be worthwhile to understand more about why psychedelics do what they do.
- colordrops 8y ago
  1. Would you say you are qualified to diagnose whether someone is mentally stable? 2. Did she partake with someone who is experienced in guiding people through trips?
- jrace 8y ago
  You are using an experience of a "mentally stable" person to dictate the treatment of "mentally unstable" people. The effects of Ritalin on a non-ADHD person are the opposite to what happens when an ADHD person takes them. I appreciate the spirit behind your message however. I think we are at the point where we can start research with mentally unstable people. It has been shown that there is little permanent issues from taking LSD or Mushrooms responsibly.
  - uxp100 8y ago
    >The effects of Ritalin on a non-ADHD person are the opposite to what happens when an ADHD person takes them. I believe this is false.
    - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
      "Opposite" may be an overstatement[1], but I take it the general argument is basically a pharmacological version of "one man's meat[2]" 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate#Uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate#Uses 2: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_man%27s_meat_is_another_man%27s_poison https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_man%27s_meat_is_another_m...
Zarath 8y ago
Is anyone else concerned about capitalism getting their hands on these sorts of things? I'm all for decriminalization, but I'm really not excited for the patents, potentially heavy modifications to the organism for the purpose of higher yields, potency, etc.
- turtlecloud 8y ago
  Ya that is what I am worried about. Can you imagine the guy selling MDMA? Would make a fortune. Drugs were best when sold by the hippies that did it to get by day by day. It got corrupted when sold purely as a money making enterprise. I believe that the current trend to legalization is to combat the Mexican cartels which are gaining immense political power using their drug money.
byron_fast 8y ago
The fact that things like mushrooms are illegal is a great example of government programs that are ill-conceived, purely destructive, and take decades to kill.
- mirceal 8y ago
  People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer.
- dang 8y ago
  Maybe so, but please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. It leads to generic ideological flamewars, which are toxic and predictable. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - byron_fast 8y ago
    Okay.
mirceal 8y ago
I recommend “Food of the Gods” https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-Evolution/dp/0553371304 https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-Evolutio... to anyone that’s interested in what role magic mushrooms may have played in the evolution of humans. It also does an interesting job in talking about what drugs are legal and what drugs are illegal (and the somewhat arbitrary demarcation line between what’s socially acceptable (alcohol, caffeine, sugar, tobacco) and what is not and will put you behind bars). Take it w/ a grain of salt but it’s definitely thought provoking. Also keep in mind that it was written in 1993 but does a pretty good job of anticipating the legalization of marijuana and the eventual decriminalization of moslty all drugs on Schedule I that were put there without any kind of research or backing data (psilocybin, DMT and friends)
srsbiznus_ 8y ago
"Here's Tom with the Weather..."
beenBoutIT 8y ago
Is the idea of cognitive liberty going to ever make a comeback? http://www.cognitiveliberty.org http://www.cognitiveliberty.org
qwerty456127 8y ago
A kind of a problem with "LSD-like" psychedelics (seemingly doesn't apply to "meth-like" MDMA) as well as with the weed is the experience with them depends hugely on your pre-existing vision, what do you actually want and where do you drive yourself during the trip. If you are a kind and loving person by nature (even if depressed and confused at the moment) sensations of beauty, joy and love will probably overwhelm you and you'll end up happy and kind but if you're a psycho like Manson you end up even more psycho. If you consciously stick to the positive emotions and vision during the trip the trip is going to be amazing and may have a profound positive therapeutic effect, but if you stumble upon fear or sorrow inside you and don't know you can and should consciously choose positive emotions it can be nightmarish. I only know of one tryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) and one rare Hungarian mushroom (can't even remember the species name now, perhaps I'll add it later) that seem to always yield positive experience, with all the others one should never forget to "use the steering wheel" during their trip. One can rely on the setting and the sitter instead but I believe this is less reliable and people should really learn basic compassion meditation and being mindful about their feelings before trying psychedelics).
greenwireless 8y ago
I generally dislike mushrooms but I was pretty moved by Joe Rogan's podcast #1035 with Paul Stamets. Despite being over 2 hours long I suggested it to and watched it in it's entirety with several different people and each time we end up discussing the content off and on for weeks or months afterwards. Highly recommended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ
banterfoil 8y ago
I have a question about mushrooms that I don't often see get addressed. Psychedelic mushrooms nearly always are touted as medicinal tools and powerful substances for curing PTSD or depression. However, in my own life, I don't suffer from any of these things. I am healthy, don't suffer from depression in any way, and am pretty satisfied with life. I am mainly interested in psychedlic mushrooms out of curiosity. I have never had any experience similar to that, and it all sounds fascinating to me. Is it a good idea for a healthy person to try these "mind altering" substances strictly out of curiosity?
- 09bjb 8y ago
  Just the opinion of an internet stranger here, but I think the medicinal benefits are touted because they're a way to get a foot in the door and start the conversation about the utility of these substances. Society still has PTSD (pun intended) from the out-of-control utopianism and concomitant criminalization / smear campaign of the 60s and 70s. Therefore using the substances to help those in desperate need is much more palatable for most people than the less urgent "betterment of well persons." But the latter is (or at least should be) a goal of the psychedelic community, for sure. I for one have been helped hugely, _tremendously_, by psychedelics...and never would have been diagnosed as mentally unwell beforehand.
- collyw 8y ago
  Definitely.

If you are interested in learning more about psychedelics, and their context in 2018, I'd recommend UC Berkeley Professor Michael Pollan's latest book "How to Change Your Mind". It is a really nice, easy to read primer on the topic, and his experience with psychedelics. He approaches the topic with a scientific yet accessible tone, and he asks and answers lots of good questions. Pollan interviews many of the people mentioned in this New York Times article. Go put your name on the list at your local library! https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-Transcendence/dp/1594204225 https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-Transc...

qwerty456127 8y ago
Definitely a cool dude. I've watched his cooking show on Netflix a couple of days ago, his philosophy impressed me and I've found out about his books too. Didn't know he also is a Berkeley professor.
arthurcolle 8y ago
I second this recommendation. it's a well thought out and well-organized exposé of this topic. Could be tightened up a bit, but the prose makes a pretty inpenetrable topic quite accessible
Reedx 8y ago
He also gave a great talk about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmZSFvhL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmZSFvhL0 Well worth a watch for anyone even remotely interested in the topic.
- jrowley 8y ago
  This talk is excellent, and I've already read the book. Thanks for sharing!
parondea 8y ago
I just finished the book and would recommend it to those who are interested in the long history of psychedelic research and the future of it. However, I think most of what I took from the book can be captured on the few podcasts he's been interviewed on. Specifically his chats with Tyler Cowen [1] and Kevin Rose [2] were particularly interesting. [1] https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/michael-pollan-tyler-cowen-nature-euphoria-food-22145fd728a2 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/michael-pollan-t... [2] https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Michael-Pollan https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Michael-Pollan
yboris 8y ago
I third this recommendation! I listened to it in audio book form -- narrated by the author himself -- a real pleasure!

apo 8y ago

Zooming out a bit, the legislation designed to stamp out the 60s and 70s counterculture is slowly being dismantled, brick by brick. https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/ https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/

fithisux 8y ago

There was an article about poisonus mushrooms that fight cancer as a chemo. Any news?

jrowley 8y ago

If you dig up the actual paper, you can see cool graphs about rhesus monkeys self administering psychedelics in test environments. (fig 1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390818302296?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839081...

qwerty456127 8y ago

They should also consider psilacetin (4-AcO-DMT) then - it's similar to the natural mushroom psilocybin but doesn't cause nausea.

tasty_freeze 8y ago
psilocybin isn't the main cause of the nausea, but the mushroom that contains it.
- Alex3917 8y ago
  I thought the nausea was caused by the Psilocin binding to the serotonin receptors near your stomach, no?

tibbon 8y ago

I don't know how the government can claim with a straight face that these substances have no known medical use, and are harmful. That's the criteria I think for Schedule 1, but there are clearly known uses for them, and the harm is relatively low. I really don't like thinking, "the government just wants to ban dangerous thoughts" but mushrooms - really? Compared to alcohol they are so incredibly safe.

Nasrudith 8y ago
Institutional inertia is one hell of a drug. Even putting aside the sinister motivations people are often very reluctant to change even in the face of major evidence - especially if it undermines their self worth to admit being wrong.
- loceng 8y ago
  Institutional inertia reminds me of the process of indoctrination, learned through memorization and not through experience and critical thinking. It's true too, that this process can result in good people with no sinister motivations falling into certain traps.
turtlecloud 8y ago
I do think the government knows that they are harmful. The main fear I think comes from the majority of people who are not that bright and can not cognitively handle the type of thinking that comes from psychedelic use. Imagine if you just listened to the gov your whole life and then after taking psychedelics u start questioning what is good/bad , what is true/false. Before you know it, flat earth theory is real.
- 09bjb 8y ago
  Personally I'd be willing to risk open-mindedness spreading to people in society that "might not be able to handle it" rather than slide further into a dystopia where we're kept stupid on purpose because we might be harder to control if we thought for ourselves.

psythrow 8y ago

I have a friend who used to be quite involved in the ayahuasca church. He now knows five people from the church who have committed suicide. The fifth just hung himself last weekend. He was 25, and was the son of one of the priestesses in the church. Spent his childhood in the church, being fed ayahuasca regularly. One of them was also a friend of mine. By the time he killed himself he was clinically insane and should have been hospitalized, sadly the services didn't get to him in time. I realise this is about psylocibin, but I think its still appropriate here. Psychedelics are no joke.

semireg 8y ago
What is the ayahuasca church? I’m not familiar.
- cypherpunks01 8y ago
  In the USA, it might refer to UDV (União do Vegetal) http://udvusa.org/ http://udvusa.org/
- psythrow 8y ago
  Santo Daime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime)
etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
I think it is a selection effect, it takes a special kind of person to want to do ayahuasca all the time. Or any more mind altering drug. Normal well adjusted people don't use drugs to excess. Maybe a little here and there.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Do you think that heavy psychedelic use is what caused them to commit suicide, or do you think that these people had their own inner demons, which they tried to combat with psychedelics? In my experience a lot of people with their own issues are drawn to psychedelics as a means managing their demons. In the right setting, they can be incredibly healing. However, for some people, psychedelics become a means of coping, tripping becomes their default state and reality becomes too much for them.

09bjb 8y ago

Psilocybin and LSD are on their way to legalization, but the enormous host of compounds in their phenethylamine family might not be so lucky due to a systematic problem with U.S. drug scheduling policy. This family shows enormous potential for treating some of our trickiest mental health / public health problems (addiction, depression, anxiety, OCD, and the list goes on) but the policy for newly discovered phenethylamines and tryptamines seems to be "Schedule first, worry about it later." This slows scientific research down dramatically, research that we need in order to even know in the first place whether a compound might have "high potential for abuse and no known medical potential." If there is medical potential (and in these families at least there usually is), what took days to Schedule will take millions of dollars and years or even decades to reschedule...per compound. So, while I celebrate the progress being made for a couple of promising compounds with a relatively large base of recognition and support, I'm hoping that I see a more sane approach to drug policy within my lifetime (Portugal seems to be the fashionable example these days). I'll also second /u/jrowley 's recommendation of Michael Pollan's recent book "How to Change Your Mind" as a good primer, and would recommend the TV show "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia" as another fascinating dive into the subject.

goodroot 8y ago

Psychedelic mushrooms are powerful medicine. They have a psychoactive effect which alters brain chemistry and helps neurological disorder. We can see that in the paper. But then so do anti-depressants. I believe the key difference between plant medicines like mushrooms, Peyote, Ayahuasca and others and clinical mood altering medicine is within the ecstatic experience. It is one to thing to have a pill lead you to an empirically more "healthy" brain. It is quite another to embark on a deep, introspective vision which provides a narrative to match the chemical benefit. I volunteer as a guide within Ayahuasca ceremonies in Peru. Many turn to Ayahuasca as a last resort for depression, PTSD, sexual trauma, and much more. I have seen people in ceremony live through what they interpret as a hellish exorcism, an active exploration of their lineage, or a direct confrontation and resolution of their deepest emotional and spiritual trauma. These people often undergo significant positive transformation after the experiences. These profoundly "real" experiences appear to be essential to the healing process. We are creatures of story and psychedelics can help write a _most radical_ chapter of recovery.

DenisM 8y ago
How bad are the bad trips? And how often they appear?
- 09bjb 8y ago
  Your best resource here is probably https://erowid.org/experiences/ https://erowid.org/experiences/
- goodroot 8y ago
  Trips often elevate beyond dualistic thinking. Common dualistic spectrums include good and bad, light and dark, heaven and hell, wet or dry, dead or alive, human and non-human, space or time... The experiences are ineffable and unlike anything perceived by prior physical sense. The integrative aspect - taking the ecstatic vision and letting it into daily life - is an ongoing process which often takes up to a year. And so good or bad is too simplistic a lens in which to judge the psychedelic experience. Moments of sheer terror, perceiving the blackest of black, are common. So too are moments of pure bliss and the sensation of limitless loving grace. These become trivialized by the overall experience, which is powerful enough to fully reorient a person's understanding of what it means to be a human being. The result depends heavily on the pre-existing mental framework that engages with the medicine. For example, people from traditional western religious backgrounds may manifest demons, angels, and heaven and hell within their experiences -- if that is what _they feel they need to experience_ in order to realize the intention that they have brought with them into the ceremony. My personal view revolves around the entrenchment of an individual's ego. Those who meditate and who have comfort with nondualistic thinking tend to ride the wave better than those who have very rigid conceptions of their self identity and its resultant patterning. A rewarding read was the academic 'Antipodes of the Mind', a phenomenological study from cognitive scientist Benny Shannon. It is the most rigourous resource that addresses the wondrous weirdness of the Ayahuasca experience.

tchrowaway15123 8y ago

Warning: anecdotes ahead. I would like to add some counterpoint to the otherwise seemingly endless supply of HN enthusiasm for psychedelics. Personally, I like psychedelics. I have an annual(ish) tradition of tripping somewhere really pretty. I think that the personal growth and emotional... trip is fun and worthwhile. However, my girlfriend had a bad trip and was scared of large trees for months. And I'd rate my girlfriend as one of the most mentally stable people I have ever met. I am unconvinced that throwing psychedelics at mentally unstable (unhealthy) people is a good idea. We need a lot more research before we start recommending them as medicine. To that end, I do believe that we should allow researchers greater flexibility to experiment with them because it would be worthwhile to understand more about why psychedelics do what they do.

colordrops 8y ago
1. Would you say you are qualified to diagnose whether someone is mentally stable? 2. Did she partake with someone who is experienced in guiding people through trips?
jrace 8y ago
You are using an experience of a "mentally stable" person to dictate the treatment of "mentally unstable" people. The effects of Ritalin on a non-ADHD person are the opposite to what happens when an ADHD person takes them. I appreciate the spirit behind your message however. I think we are at the point where we can start research with mentally unstable people. It has been shown that there is little permanent issues from taking LSD or Mushrooms responsibly.
- uxp100 8y ago
  >The effects of Ritalin on a non-ADHD person are the opposite to what happens when an ADHD person takes them. I believe this is false.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    "Opposite" may be an overstatement[1], but I take it the general argument is basically a pharmacological version of "one man's meat[2]" 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate#Uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate#Uses 2: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_man%27s_meat_is_another_man%27s_poison https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_man%27s_meat_is_another_m...

Zarath 8y ago

Is anyone else concerned about capitalism getting their hands on these sorts of things? I'm all for decriminalization, but I'm really not excited for the patents, potentially heavy modifications to the organism for the purpose of higher yields, potency, etc.

turtlecloud 8y ago
Ya that is what I am worried about. Can you imagine the guy selling MDMA? Would make a fortune. Drugs were best when sold by the hippies that did it to get by day by day. It got corrupted when sold purely as a money making enterprise. I believe that the current trend to legalization is to combat the Mexican cartels which are gaining immense political power using their drug money.

byron_fast 8y ago

The fact that things like mushrooms are illegal is a great example of government programs that are ill-conceived, purely destructive, and take decades to kill.

mirceal 8y ago
People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer.
dang 8y ago
Maybe so, but please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. It leads to generic ideological flamewars, which are toxic and predictable. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- byron_fast 8y ago
  Okay.

mirceal 8y ago

I recommend “Food of the Gods” https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-Evolution/dp/0553371304 https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-Evolutio... to anyone that’s interested in what role magic mushrooms may have played in the evolution of humans. It also does an interesting job in talking about what drugs are legal and what drugs are illegal (and the somewhat arbitrary demarcation line between what’s socially acceptable (alcohol, caffeine, sugar, tobacco) and what is not and will put you behind bars). Take it w/ a grain of salt but it’s definitely thought provoking. Also keep in mind that it was written in 1993 but does a pretty good job of anticipating the legalization of marijuana and the eventual decriminalization of moslty all drugs on Schedule I that were put there without any kind of research or backing data (psilocybin, DMT and friends)

srsbiznus_ 8y ago

"Here's Tom with the Weather..."

beenBoutIT 8y ago

Is the idea of cognitive liberty going to ever make a comeback? http://www.cognitiveliberty.org http://www.cognitiveliberty.org

qwerty456127 8y ago

A kind of a problem with "LSD-like" psychedelics (seemingly doesn't apply to "meth-like" MDMA) as well as with the weed is the experience with them depends hugely on your pre-existing vision, what do you actually want and where do you drive yourself during the trip. If you are a kind and loving person by nature (even if depressed and confused at the moment) sensations of beauty, joy and love will probably overwhelm you and you'll end up happy and kind but if you're a psycho like Manson you end up even more psycho. If you consciously stick to the positive emotions and vision during the trip the trip is going to be amazing and may have a profound positive therapeutic effect, but if you stumble upon fear or sorrow inside you and don't know you can and should consciously choose positive emotions it can be nightmarish. I only know of one tryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) and one rare Hungarian mushroom (can't even remember the species name now, perhaps I'll add it later) that seem to always yield positive experience, with all the others one should never forget to "use the steering wheel" during their trip. One can rely on the setting and the sitter instead but I believe this is less reliable and people should really learn basic compassion meditation and being mindful about their feelings before trying psychedelics).

greenwireless 8y ago

I generally dislike mushrooms but I was pretty moved by Joe Rogan's podcast #1035 with Paul Stamets. Despite being over 2 hours long I suggested it to and watched it in it's entirety with several different people and each time we end up discussing the content off and on for weeks or months afterwards. Highly recommended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ

banterfoil 8y ago

I have a question about mushrooms that I don't often see get addressed. Psychedelic mushrooms nearly always are touted as medicinal tools and powerful substances for curing PTSD or depression. However, in my own life, I don't suffer from any of these things. I am healthy, don't suffer from depression in any way, and am pretty satisfied with life. I am mainly interested in psychedlic mushrooms out of curiosity. I have never had any experience similar to that, and it all sounds fascinating to me. Is it a good idea for a healthy person to try these "mind altering" substances strictly out of curiosity?

09bjb 8y ago
Just the opinion of an internet stranger here, but I think the medicinal benefits are touted because they're a way to get a foot in the door and start the conversation about the utility of these substances. Society still has PTSD (pun intended) from the out-of-control utopianism and concomitant criminalization / smear campaign of the 60s and 70s. Therefore using the substances to help those in desperate need is much more palatable for most people than the less urgent "betterment of well persons." But the latter is (or at least should be) a goal of the psychedelic community, for sure. I for one have been helped hugely, _tremendously_, by psychedelics...and never would have been diagnosed as mentally unwell beforehand.
collyw 8y ago
Definitely.