5 ms·

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average? In real life?

by tom_ 8y ago

atombender 8y ago
I'm sure that they were using US gallons. Whether this is data is accurate is another matter. According to the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), Europe averaged 46 MPG (US gallons, "normalized to CAFE test cycles") in 2015 [1], compared to something like 37 MPG in the US. This NY Times article [2] summarizes the report, with some nice graphs. [1] https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/2017-Global-LDV-Standards-Update_ICCT-Report_23062017_vF.pdf https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/201... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fuel-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fu...
- thinkling 8y ago
  I share your parent's skepticism. It seems obvious that cars sold in the US are not averaging 37 MPG when the average car is roughly a RAV4 that gets 22/29.(EDIT: It occurs to me that the RAV4 may be classified as a light truck -- even so, I can go pick a passenger car...) As far as I can tell taking a quick look at your links, the difference can be in two things. First, these are fuel economy standards companies are expected to hit, and not reporting on whether they hit them or missed and paid penalties. Second there's the phrase "Assumes manufacturers fully use low-GWP A/C refrigerants credits". Apparently fuel economy numbers are boosted by these credits--actual fuel economy isn't the same thing, it appears? (EDIT: Overall fuel economy for cars and trucks combined was 24.8 mpg in MY2015 [1]) [1] https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg....
  - llukas 8y ago
    If you compare US cars to EU cars on average then: - EU cars are much smaller - hp of engines is much lower > "skepticism" "It seems obvious" Pick one please.
    - thinkling 8y ago
      I wasn't saying anything about EU cars -- why are you bringing that up? I am skeptical of the 37mpg claim because it seems clear to me that the average car sold in the US isn't that efficient. What's the contradiction?
      - llukas 8y ago
        Sorry, I missed that part. I think 37mpg depends on what you actually count as a car and what goes for a light truck.
        thinkling 8y ago
        See my comment in a parallel branch for data: even the US best-selling passenger cars don’t average 37 mpg.
  - thinkling 8y ago
    Additional notes: The top 4 best-selling passenger cars are the Honda Accord and Civic, and the Toyota Camry and Corolla [1]. Their "combined city/highway" fuel efficiences are respectively 30, 34, 27, and 32 mpg for the base engine [2][3][4][5]. How can this possibly work out to 37 mpg overall? There aren't enough hybrid sales to bring that number up. [1] http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/08/july-2018-ytd-u-s-passenger-car-sales-rankings-best-selling-cars-in-america/ http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/08/july-2018-ytd-u-s-passe... [2] https://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/2017/features-specs/ [3] https://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2017/features-specs/ [4] https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/camry/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/camry/2017/features-specs/ [5] https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2017/features-specs/
    - tom_ 8y ago
      Thanks for finding some stats. Based on the cars I see driving in the UK, I'm sure plenty of people buy cars that claim to do 55mpg, and many of those cars will actually do 55mpg. But as an average? - I'm just a bit unconvinced. (Perhaps the mpgs were added up and divided by N? That doesn't always provide the answer you're looking for.)
wongarsu 8y ago
The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average and maximum distance traveled (in Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips), road conditions (high population density makes offroad driving less important in rural Europe than in rural America), etc
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  That's kind of a bad comparison because the Ford F-Series (or any other pickup platform) is many different vehicles under one name.
  - merb 8y ago
    basically in europe there are not a lot of pickups to none out there. in europe there is a trend for SUVs at the moment, but besides that we mostly buy limousines.
    - p1mrx 8y ago
      This is a "limousine" in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Lincoln_Town_Car_limousine.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Li... So I assume you were using the "sedan" interpretation.
    - teekert 8y ago
      Indeed but it's funny that most SUVs are (what I'd call) fake SUVs. They look beefy and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg (like the Hyundai ix35). And then there are the real ones that may at first glance look the same but easily pull up to or over 2400 kg (Volvo xc90 versions).
      - 8y ago
SECProto 8y ago
Europe and Japan both use smaller engine sizes, increasing fuel economy pretty drastically compared to North America. Especially when your average speed might be 80 km/hr, rather than 80 miles an hour. I don't know if their different testing regimes reflect that (maybe). Anecdote: several years ago, I got the lightest, smallest-engined, most-efficient car I could find here in Canada, a Toyota Yaris. And using a calculator to convert units, I see that even so, it only gets me ~40 US MPG (real world) - most because of highway speeds. When I drive mostly 80km/hr, it's about 42 US MPG. When I drive mostly 120 km/hr, it's more like 36 US MPG. The same car is sold in Japan/EU with a 1.2 litre engine, vs the 1.5 litre in North America. Similar things happen with many other models.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  A Toyota Camry Hybrid will get better MPG with a 2.5 liter engine, and give more space for passengers and cargo, than the Yaris. Also it has EV-like torque.
  - SECProto 8y ago
    My relatives drive a Camry Hybrid, and I've used it a fair bit. It certainly does have better torque, and slightly better real world mileage (5.5 litre/100km for the Camry, vs my Yaris at 6.0 litre/100km). It also drives more comfortably on the highway. It's less affected by wind/passenger weight, though downshifting to 4th has never been an issue for me. However, as a sedan, I strongly dispute the "more space for passengers and cargo". The trunk is larger in the camry, but has severe limits that the Yaris, a hatchback, does not. Carrying a mini fridge, for example, is out of the question in a Camry, but easy in a Yaris (as long as you only have 1 or 2 passengers). Also, the camry has better rear-seat leg room, but much less height, such that my head (185cm) touches the roof in the back seats. Finally, the Yaris has better clearance for rough roads, and much better turning radius and visibility for city driving. (Oh, and my cost after 150000km, including purchase, fuel, and oil changes, is just approaching the purchase price of a Camry Hybrid) I wish the Yaris Hybrid, available in Japan, was available in North America.
    - 8y ago

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average? In real life?

by tom_ 8y ago

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average? In real life?

I'm sure that they were using US gallons. Whether this is data is accurate is another matter. According to the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), Europe averaged 46 MPG (US gallons, "normalized to CAFE test cycles") in 2015 [1], compared to something like 37 MPG in the US. This NY Times article [2] summarizes the report, with some nice graphs. [1] https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/2017-Global-LDV-Standards-Update_ICCT-Report_23062017_vF.pdf https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/201... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fuel-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fu...

thinkling 8y ago
I share your parent's skepticism. It seems obvious that cars sold in the US are not averaging 37 MPG when the average car is roughly a RAV4 that gets 22/29.(EDIT: It occurs to me that the RAV4 may be classified as a light truck -- even so, I can go pick a passenger car...) As far as I can tell taking a quick look at your links, the difference can be in two things. First, these are fuel economy standards companies are expected to hit, and not reporting on whether they hit them or missed and paid penalties. Second there's the phrase "Assumes manufacturers fully use low-GWP A/C refrigerants credits". Apparently fuel economy numbers are boosted by these credits--actual fuel economy isn't the same thing, it appears? (EDIT: Overall fuel economy for cars and trucks combined was 24.8 mpg in MY2015 [1]) [1] https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg....
- llukas 8y ago
  If you compare US cars to EU cars on average then: - EU cars are much smaller - hp of engines is much lower > "skepticism" "It seems obvious" Pick one please.
  - thinkling 8y ago
    I wasn't saying anything about EU cars -- why are you bringing that up? I am skeptical of the 37mpg claim because it seems clear to me that the average car sold in the US isn't that efficient. What's the contradiction?
    - llukas 8y ago
      Sorry, I missed that part. I think 37mpg depends on what you actually count as a car and what goes for a light truck.
      - thinkling 8y ago
        See my comment in a parallel branch for data: even the US best-selling passenger cars don’t average 37 mpg.
- thinkling 8y ago
  Additional notes: The top 4 best-selling passenger cars are the Honda Accord and Civic, and the Toyota Camry and Corolla [1]. Their "combined city/highway" fuel efficiences are respectively 30, 34, 27, and 32 mpg for the base engine [2][3][4][5]. How can this possibly work out to 37 mpg overall? There aren't enough hybrid sales to bring that number up. [1] http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/08/july-2018-ytd-u-s-passenger-car-sales-rankings-best-selling-cars-in-america/ http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/08/july-2018-ytd-u-s-passe... [2] https://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/2017/features-specs/ [3] https://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2017/features-specs/ [4] https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/camry/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/camry/2017/features-specs/ [5] https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2017/features-specs/ https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2017/features-specs/
  - tom_ 8y ago
    Thanks for finding some stats. Based on the cars I see driving in the UK, I'm sure plenty of people buy cars that claim to do 55mpg, and many of those cars will actually do 55mpg. But as an average? - I'm just a bit unconvinced. (Perhaps the mpgs were added up and divided by N? That doesn't always provide the answer you're looking for.)

wongarsu 8y ago

The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average and maximum distance traveled (in Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips), road conditions (high population density makes offroad driving less important in rural Europe than in rural America), etc

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
That's kind of a bad comparison because the Ford F-Series (or any other pickup platform) is many different vehicles under one name.
- merb 8y ago
  basically in europe there are not a lot of pickups to none out there. in europe there is a trend for SUVs at the moment, but besides that we mostly buy limousines.
  - p1mrx 8y ago
    This is a "limousine" in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Lincoln_Town_Car_limousine.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Li... So I assume you were using the "sedan" interpretation.
  - teekert 8y ago
    Indeed but it's funny that most SUVs are (what I'd call) fake SUVs. They look beefy and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg (like the Hyundai ix35). And then there are the real ones that may at first glance look the same but easily pull up to or over 2400 kg (Volvo xc90 versions).
    - 8y ago

SECProto 8y ago

Europe and Japan both use smaller engine sizes, increasing fuel economy pretty drastically compared to North America. Especially when your average speed might be 80 km/hr, rather than 80 miles an hour. I don't know if their different testing regimes reflect that (maybe). Anecdote: several years ago, I got the lightest, smallest-engined, most-efficient car I could find here in Canada, a Toyota Yaris. And using a calculator to convert units, I see that even so, it only gets me ~40 US MPG (real world) - most because of highway speeds. When I drive mostly 80km/hr, it's about 42 US MPG. When I drive mostly 120 km/hr, it's more like 36 US MPG. The same car is sold in Japan/EU with a 1.2 litre engine, vs the 1.5 litre in North America. Similar things happen with many other models.

stephengillie 8y ago
A Toyota Camry Hybrid will get better MPG with a 2.5 liter engine, and give more space for passengers and cargo, than the Yaris. Also it has EV-like torque.
- SECProto 8y ago
  My relatives drive a Camry Hybrid, and I've used it a fair bit. It certainly does have better torque, and slightly better real world mileage (5.5 litre/100km for the Camry, vs my Yaris at 6.0 litre/100km). It also drives more comfortably on the highway. It's less affected by wind/passenger weight, though downshifting to 4th has never been an issue for me. However, as a sedan, I strongly dispute the "more space for passengers and cargo". The trunk is larger in the camry, but has severe limits that the Yaris, a hatchback, does not. Carrying a mini fridge, for example, is out of the question in a Camry, but easy in a Yaris (as long as you only have 1 or 2 passengers). Also, the camry has better rear-seat leg room, but much less height, such that my head (185cm) touches the roof in the back seats. Finally, the Yaris has better clearance for rough roads, and much better turning radius and visibility for city driving. (Oh, and my cost after 150000km, including purchase, fuel, and oil changes, is just approaching the purchase price of a Camry Hybrid) I wish the Yaris Hybrid, available in Japan, was available in North America.
  - 8y ago