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"Imperfect Produce claims it’s saving the world by reducing food waste—and helping farmers by buying surplus 'ugly' produce that would have been thrown out. Sou

"Imperfect Produce claims it’s saving the world by reducing food waste—and helping farmers by buying surplus 'ugly' produce that would have been thrown out. Sounds great. The reality is that this produce would have otherwise gone to food banks, to be redistributed for free." People are complaining because a hidden subsidy (from government and other food buyers to the food banks) has been removed. I don't like seeing groups shoehorn welfare into other areas. If you've got an income (or cash welfare) problem, fix that.

Swizec 8y ago
It’s crazy the contortions americans go through to avoid having welfare while still trying to have welfare. But god forbid we just have actual welfare. Been living here 4 years, still don’t get it. Prob never will. I’m supposed to only buy expensive produce so the cheap stuff can be left for those less fortunate? Why don’t you just use some of the exorbitant taxes I pay to help the less fortunate directly? Smh
- ataturk 8y ago
  Or stop having the exorbitant taxes and be all right with bad choices people make because every "poor" person I know always has money for booze and cigarettes.
- dcow 8y ago
  I get the sentiment but...we do have welfare programs. If a food source once available is becoming scarce, then obviously they will need to be revamped where appropriate.
  - DubiousPusher 8y ago
    I think it's easy to take that cold engineerlike approach when you won't be the one occupying this gap until it is filled
    - dcow 8y ago
      Cold? Factual, maybe. Are you saying you buy ugly food?
      - DubiousPusher 8y ago
        No. I happen to agree that the best thing would be for the market to purchase these items and for food subsidies to adjust. But you say > they [welfare programs] will need to be revamped where appropriate. as if this will certainly happen and that it will happen quickly. But that is certainly not the case. And what do people do in the meantime? It doesn't seem tough when you've got $1,000, $500 even $100 in the bank. But losing a small benefit for even a couple years can be brutal if you're in poverty. The gears of the market are a powerful tool for making our society wealthier but they'll grind you up just the same if you're living on the margin as they begin to turn. Ask anyone who has been a resident of a Midwestern town for the past 50 years.
        dcow 8y ago
        I grew up in the Midwest. I think you’re mistaking my tone. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care, I’m reminding the original parent that we do have welfare programs and they will adjust. It’s equally absurd to suggest impoverished people shouldn’t have access to the same food others do and be resigned to ugly food because no one else buys it...
- forapurpose 8y ago
  What is exorbitant about U.S. taxes? Is the overall tax burden relatively high compared with other countries? Compared with the past?
  - Swizec 8y ago
    Fine maybe they’re not exorbitant comparatively but paying 30 to 50% of my income to taxes and seemingly not getting much if anything in return feels wrong. I’m okay paying taxes, I’d just like them to be used better (meaning for things I can see/experience)
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      > not getting much if anything in return Wow - security, both from war and crime, a legal system, safety in everything from water to food to airplanes, almost the entire transportation infrastructure, most of the education everyone receives including college and post-grad, research in everything from history to cancer to basic physics to fracking to computer science and integrated circuits (let's recall that the industry that probably employs you was founded on government research), a stable business environment both domestically and internationally, healthcare, democracy, freedom ... I kinda feel like I underpay.
      - jpatokal 8y ago
        In most European countries, your taxes get you all that and universal health care, reliable unemployment benefits and free higher education.
        forapurpose 8y ago
        That's because their health care is half the cost!
forapurpose 8y ago
> I don't like seeing groups shoehorn welfare into other areas. If you've got an income (or cash welfare) problem, fix that. I'd prefer a better solution, but when one isn't available (and likely not forthcoming), needs of real people outweigh my economic principles: These people need food. It's the same in engineering: As much as we would wish otherwise, sometimes the 'right' solution isn't available and we need to deliver, so we provide an imperfect solution that works.
- gowld 8y ago
  You aren't disagreeing. People need food, so fund a food bank. Don't create absurdly contorted markets to preserve unnecessary waste streams to be reprurposed for food banks.
  - ItsMe000001 8y ago
    In the same line and as an anecdotal aside, here in Bavaria we are soon going to have state-wide elections (i.e. for Bavaria). One party that is known to be a kind of comedic joke party but nevertheless actually managed to get someone elected for EU parliament put up posters all over town that are not all that funny down deep: For background, here in Germany quite a few retirees walk around town and collect deposit bottles out of trash bins, to make a little bit of money on top of their meager pensions. The poster ad suggests as election slogan of "Die Partei" ("The Party") to increase the per-bottle deposit in order to decrease poverty, so that retirees get more money from rummaging in trash bins. The poster: https://www.wuv.de/var/wuv/storage/images/media/bilder/die_partei_maxi_str/9009688-1-ger-DE/die_partei_maxi_str.jpg https://www.wuv.de/var/wuv/storage/images/media/bilder/die_p... I think that's a similar variant of the twisted logic that you call out, but while it probably isn't intentional in the example discussed here (looks more like an emergent property nobody planned for) they use it deliberately to make a point, to make people think.
    - dominicr 8y ago
      Funnily enough in Norway they’ve just doubled the bottle deposit, to the benefit of people who search bins for empty bottles (mostly immigrants). I think they were actually hoping less people would throw bottles away but it’d have to be a lot higher to stop that.
rhizome 8y ago
If you've got an income (or cash welfare) problem, fix that It wasn't a problem before.
394549 8y ago
> I don't like seeing groups shoehorn welfare into other areas. If you've got an income (or cash welfare) problem, fix that. And then the problem never gets fixed. You argue against this practice with the reasoning that the "income problem" should be solved directly. Simultaneously, others argue (loudly) against solving the "income problem" directly with the reasoning that practices like this are the answer. At every point, there's an alternative that can be used as an excuse to totally avoid solving or ameliorating the problem.

Swizec 8y ago

It’s crazy the contortions americans go through to avoid having welfare while still trying to have welfare. But god forbid we just have actual welfare. Been living here 4 years, still don’t get it. Prob never will. I’m supposed to only buy expensive produce so the cheap stuff can be left for those less fortunate? Why don’t you just use some of the exorbitant taxes I pay to help the less fortunate directly? Smh

ataturk 8y ago
Or stop having the exorbitant taxes and be all right with bad choices people make because every "poor" person I know always has money for booze and cigarettes.
dcow 8y ago
I get the sentiment but...we do have welfare programs. If a food source once available is becoming scarce, then obviously they will need to be revamped where appropriate.
- DubiousPusher 8y ago
  I think it's easy to take that cold engineerlike approach when you won't be the one occupying this gap until it is filled
  - dcow 8y ago
    Cold? Factual, maybe. Are you saying you buy ugly food?
    - DubiousPusher 8y ago
      No. I happen to agree that the best thing would be for the market to purchase these items and for food subsidies to adjust. But you say > they [welfare programs] will need to be revamped where appropriate. as if this will certainly happen and that it will happen quickly. But that is certainly not the case. And what do people do in the meantime? It doesn't seem tough when you've got $1,000, $500 even $100 in the bank. But losing a small benefit for even a couple years can be brutal if you're in poverty. The gears of the market are a powerful tool for making our society wealthier but they'll grind you up just the same if you're living on the margin as they begin to turn. Ask anyone who has been a resident of a Midwestern town for the past 50 years.
      - dcow 8y ago
        I grew up in the Midwest. I think you’re mistaking my tone. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care, I’m reminding the original parent that we do have welfare programs and they will adjust. It’s equally absurd to suggest impoverished people shouldn’t have access to the same food others do and be resigned to ugly food because no one else buys it...
forapurpose 8y ago
What is exorbitant about U.S. taxes? Is the overall tax burden relatively high compared with other countries? Compared with the past?
- Swizec 8y ago
  Fine maybe they’re not exorbitant comparatively but paying 30 to 50% of my income to taxes and seemingly not getting much if anything in return feels wrong. I’m okay paying taxes, I’d just like them to be used better (meaning for things I can see/experience)
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > not getting much if anything in return Wow - security, both from war and crime, a legal system, safety in everything from water to food to airplanes, almost the entire transportation infrastructure, most of the education everyone receives including college and post-grad, research in everything from history to cancer to basic physics to fracking to computer science and integrated circuits (let's recall that the industry that probably employs you was founded on government research), a stable business environment both domestically and internationally, healthcare, democracy, freedom ... I kinda feel like I underpay.
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      In most European countries, your taxes get you all that and universal health care, reliable unemployment benefits and free higher education.
      - forapurpose 8y ago
        That's because their health care is half the cost!

forapurpose 8y ago

> I don't like seeing groups shoehorn welfare into other areas. If you've got an income (or cash welfare) problem, fix that. I'd prefer a better solution, but when one isn't available (and likely not forthcoming), needs of real people outweigh my economic principles: These people need food. It's the same in engineering: As much as we would wish otherwise, sometimes the 'right' solution isn't available and we need to deliver, so we provide an imperfect solution that works.

gowld 8y ago
You aren't disagreeing. People need food, so fund a food bank. Don't create absurdly contorted markets to preserve unnecessary waste streams to be reprurposed for food banks.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  In the same line and as an anecdotal aside, here in Bavaria we are soon going to have state-wide elections (i.e. for Bavaria). One party that is known to be a kind of comedic joke party but nevertheless actually managed to get someone elected for EU parliament put up posters all over town that are not all that funny down deep: For background, here in Germany quite a few retirees walk around town and collect deposit bottles out of trash bins, to make a little bit of money on top of their meager pensions. The poster ad suggests as election slogan of "Die Partei" ("The Party") to increase the per-bottle deposit in order to decrease poverty, so that retirees get more money from rummaging in trash bins. The poster: https://www.wuv.de/var/wuv/storage/images/media/bilder/die_partei_maxi_str/9009688-1-ger-DE/die_partei_maxi_str.jpg https://www.wuv.de/var/wuv/storage/images/media/bilder/die_p... I think that's a similar variant of the twisted logic that you call out, but while it probably isn't intentional in the example discussed here (looks more like an emergent property nobody planned for) they use it deliberately to make a point, to make people think.
  - dominicr 8y ago
    Funnily enough in Norway they’ve just doubled the bottle deposit, to the benefit of people who search bins for empty bottles (mostly immigrants). I think they were actually hoping less people would throw bottles away but it’d have to be a lot higher to stop that.

rhizome 8y ago

If you've got an income (or cash welfare) problem, fix that It wasn't a problem before.

394549 8y ago

> I don't like seeing groups shoehorn welfare into other areas. If you've got an income (or cash welfare) problem, fix that. And then the problem never gets fixed. You argue against this practice with the reasoning that the "income problem" should be solved directly. Simultaneously, others argue (loudly) against solving the "income problem" directly with the reasoning that practices like this are the answer. At every point, there's an alternative that can be used as an excuse to totally avoid solving or ameliorating the problem.