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Sadly, after more than 20 years building software, _NEVER_ trust a business person. My faith in humanity had to have me bitten by this the hard way more than o

Sadly, after more than 20 years building software, _NEVER_ trust a business person. My faith in humanity had to have me bitten by this the hard way more than once.

hnal943 8y ago
You are also a business person, aren't you?
z3 8y ago
+1 every time I say exactly the same. I have an axiom about that. 1. Do not trust “business” guys! 2. If they give you some “sweet” offer, look at the rule No.1
throwaway713 8y ago
Could you elaborate a bit more? I’m not sure what to take away from this.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  See e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18133748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18133748 upthread for a story about trusting business people.
  - lightbulbish 8y ago
    That's just a bad person, nothing to do with a business vs. a tech person.
- munchbunny 8y ago
  Here's a more charitable way of thinking about this, based on my own experiences. When you're making a deal anyone (agreeing to do work, buy/sell, partner, etc.) there are two sets of motives you have to consider: what they tell you up front, and what they actually want. In your day to day, even at work, those two things are the same. But in many contexts where you would be talking to a "business person," those two things can be very different. Lumping it all into "business person" isn't very useful because there are a lot of business people. So maybe a few specific examples can help. Account managers and salespeople: while their stated job is to help you with customer issues, they're actually paid to sell/upsell you, and even if they're not, they're evaluated on selling/upselling you. This means they're likely to stretch the truth about the product they're selling in order to close the deal. So when you're interacting with salespeople, you can never 100% trust what they tell you, because they're not actually trying to help you. Business development: the company they work for has an agenda. That agenda won't be obvious to you. Maybe they're asking you to come in to do a demo because they want to consider partnering with/acquiring your startup. Actually, they're spinning up a team to just build it themselves, but they want ideas. The problem is you have no way of knowing which is which. HR: you know the common wisdom, they're there to protect the company, not you, and often that makes a huge difference. Someone hiring you for contract work: they do want the work done, but they're trying their hardest to avoid paying. That means every ambiguity in the agreement becomes something they might try to leverage against you. In other words, don't trust someone until you understand their hidden motive. "Business people" just tend to have more of them than your average person.
jondubois 8y ago
Yeah, I'm surprised that they trust each other at all. What keeps them from bashing each other with sticks? When I see business people smile at each other and shaking hands, I cannot make sense of this in my mind. What's the point of smiling when both people couldn't care less if the other person dropped dead on the spot.
- cercatrova 8y ago
  They care whether they can get some use out of the other before either drops dead
- your-nanny 8y ago
  there are many business people who don't engage in that. at least on main Street, where relationships actually matter.
- Mihalis 8y ago
  Yeah, I get what you are saying. This might illuminate what's happening. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
joncp 8y ago
Also, watch out for business people disguised as tech people. They're the most dangerous of all.
- gammateam 8y ago
  all developers in New York simultaneously quit
wwweston 8y ago
I might give a softer version: 1) Never assume people will respect the value of your time and the fruits of your labor. Some people in particular are looking for related arbitrage opportunities. It isn't even necessarily malevolent, it can be just a frequent human limitation in how value is perceived. Though sometimes it is predatory to the point of malevolence. 2) Assume any future promised reward is unlikely to materialize when making your decisions (if it is not specified via contract, assume it will outright not happen). If a given course doesn't make 90% sense if a possible upside doesn't happen, then it doesn't make sense.

Sadly, after more than 20 years building software, _NEVER_ trust a business person. My faith in humanity had to have me bitten by this the hard way more than once.

hnal943 8y ago

You are also a business person, aren't you?

z3 8y ago

+1 every time I say exactly the same. I have an axiom about that. 1. Do not trust “business” guys! 2. If they give you some “sweet” offer, look at the rule No.1

throwaway713 8y ago

Could you elaborate a bit more? I’m not sure what to take away from this.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
See e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18133748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18133748 upthread for a story about trusting business people.
- lightbulbish 8y ago
  That's just a bad person, nothing to do with a business vs. a tech person.
munchbunny 8y ago
Here's a more charitable way of thinking about this, based on my own experiences. When you're making a deal anyone (agreeing to do work, buy/sell, partner, etc.) there are two sets of motives you have to consider: what they tell you up front, and what they actually want. In your day to day, even at work, those two things are the same. But in many contexts where you would be talking to a "business person," those two things can be very different. Lumping it all into "business person" isn't very useful because there are a lot of business people. So maybe a few specific examples can help. Account managers and salespeople: while their stated job is to help you with customer issues, they're actually paid to sell/upsell you, and even if they're not, they're evaluated on selling/upselling you. This means they're likely to stretch the truth about the product they're selling in order to close the deal. So when you're interacting with salespeople, you can never 100% trust what they tell you, because they're not actually trying to help you. Business development: the company they work for has an agenda. That agenda won't be obvious to you. Maybe they're asking you to come in to do a demo because they want to consider partnering with/acquiring your startup. Actually, they're spinning up a team to just build it themselves, but they want ideas. The problem is you have no way of knowing which is which. HR: you know the common wisdom, they're there to protect the company, not you, and often that makes a huge difference. Someone hiring you for contract work: they do want the work done, but they're trying their hardest to avoid paying. That means every ambiguity in the agreement becomes something they might try to leverage against you. In other words, don't trust someone until you understand their hidden motive. "Business people" just tend to have more of them than your average person.

jondubois 8y ago

Yeah, I'm surprised that they trust each other at all. What keeps them from bashing each other with sticks? When I see business people smile at each other and shaking hands, I cannot make sense of this in my mind. What's the point of smiling when both people couldn't care less if the other person dropped dead on the spot.

cercatrova 8y ago
They care whether they can get some use out of the other before either drops dead
your-nanny 8y ago
there are many business people who don't engage in that. at least on main Street, where relationships actually matter.
Mihalis 8y ago
Yeah, I get what you are saying. This might illuminate what's happening. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

joncp 8y ago

Also, watch out for business people disguised as tech people. They're the most dangerous of all.

gammateam 8y ago
all developers in New York simultaneously quit

wwweston 8y ago

I might give a softer version: 1) Never assume people will respect the value of your time and the fruits of your labor. Some people in particular are looking for related arbitrage opportunities. It isn't even necessarily malevolent, it can be just a frequent human limitation in how value is perceived. Though sometimes it is predatory to the point of malevolence. 2) Assume any future promised reward is unlikely to materialize when making your decisions (if it is not specified via contract, assume it will outright not happen). If a given course doesn't make 90% sense if a possible upside doesn't happen, then it doesn't make sense.