8 ms·

> I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. Carbon taxing works well when it's a

by yholio 8y ago

> I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. Carbon taxing works well when it's applied - but it's very hard to create the political consensus to impose it. For example, the high cost of fuel in Europe has driven cars to an average MPG equivalent of 45 versus the average of 33 in US. That's nothing to sneeze at, it's 40% more for a given amount of CO2 - and that's after the continous fuel efficiency improvements happening on both sides in recent decades: https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/09/fuel_economy_comparison.png https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/0... However, the EU fuel taxes are not actually carbon taxes, they are road taxes. Imposing the same tax on industry and power generation, as pure carbon taxes, would have immense political blow back. So I really wonder how do you think "ban all non-renewable electric stations and cement factories" would work if we can't even accept a 3-10% price increase on these products?

walshemj 8y ago
Don't forget US Gallons are smaller than "proper" imperial ones
- atombender 8y ago
  OP is using US gallons, though.
  - tom_ 8y ago
    Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average? In real life?
    - atombender 8y ago
      I'm sure that they were using US gallons. Whether this is data is accurate is another matter. According to the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), Europe averaged 46 MPG (US gallons, "normalized to CAFE test cycles") in 2015 [1], compared to something like 37 MPG in the US. This NY Times article [2] summarizes the report, with some nice graphs. [1] https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/2017-Global-LDV-Standards-Update_ICCT-Report_23062017_vF.pdf https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/201... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fuel-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fu...
      - thinkling 8y ago
        I share your parent's skepticism. It seems obvious that cars sold in the US are not averaging 37 MPG when the average car is roughly a RAV4 that gets 22/29.(EDIT: It occurs to me that the RAV4 may be classified as a light truck -- even so, I can go pick a passenger car...) As far as I can tell taking a quick look at your links, the difference can be in two things. First, these are fuel economy standards companies are expected to hit, and not reporting on whether they hit them or missed and paid penalties. Second there's the phrase "Assumes manufacturers fully use low-GWP A/C refrigerants credits". Apparently fuel economy numbers are boosted by these credits--actual fuel economy isn't the same thing, it appears? (EDIT: Overall fuel economy for cars and trucks combined was 24.8 mpg in MY2015 [1]) [1] https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg....
        llukas 8y ago
        If you compare US cars to EU cars on average then: - EU cars are much smaller - hp of engines is much lower > "skepticism" "It seems obvious" Pick one please.
        thinkling 8y ago
        I wasn't saying anything about EU cars -- why are you bringing that up? I am skeptical of the 37mpg claim because it seems clear to me that the average car sold in the US isn't that efficient. What's the contradiction?
        llukas 8y ago
        Sorry, I missed that part. I think 37mpg depends on what you actually count as a car and what goes for a light truck.
        thinkling 8y ago
        See my comment in a parallel branch for data: even the US best-selling passenger cars don’t average 37 mpg.
    - wongarsu 8y ago
      The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average and maximum distance traveled (in Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips), road conditions (high population density makes offroad driving less important in rural Europe than in rural America), etc
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        That's kind of a bad comparison because the Ford F-Series (or any other pickup platform) is many different vehicles under one name.
        merb 8y ago
        basically in europe there are not a lot of pickups to none out there. in europe there is a trend for SUVs at the moment, but besides that we mostly buy limousines.
        p1mrx 8y ago
        This is a "limousine" in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Lincoln_Town_Car_limousine.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Li... So I assume you were using the "sedan" interpretation.
        teekert 8y ago
        Indeed but it's funny that most SUVs are (what I'd call) fake SUVs. They look beefy and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg (like the Hyundai ix35). And then there are the real ones that may at first glance look the same but easily pull up to or over 2400 kg (Volvo xc90 versions).
        8y ago
    - SECProto 8y ago
      Europe and Japan both use smaller engine sizes, increasing fuel economy pretty drastically compared to North America. Especially when your average speed might be 80 km/hr, rather than 80 miles an hour. I don't know if their different testing regimes reflect that (maybe). Anecdote: several years ago, I got the lightest, smallest-engined, most-efficient car I could find here in Canada, a Toyota Yaris. And using a calculator to convert units, I see that even so, it only gets me ~40 US MPG (real world) - most because of highway speeds. When I drive mostly 80km/hr, it's about 42 US MPG. When I drive mostly 120 km/hr, it's more like 36 US MPG. The same car is sold in Japan/EU with a 1.2 litre engine, vs the 1.5 litre in North America. Similar things happen with many other models.
      - stephengillie 8y ago
        A Toyota Camry Hybrid will get better MPG with a 2.5 liter engine, and give more space for passengers and cargo, than the Yaris. Also it has EV-like torque.
        SECProto 8y ago
        My relatives drive a Camry Hybrid, and I've used it a fair bit. It certainly does have better torque, and slightly better real world mileage (5.5 litre/100km for the Camry, vs my Yaris at 6.0 litre/100km). It also drives more comfortably on the highway. It's less affected by wind/passenger weight, though downshifting to 4th has never been an issue for me. However, as a sedan, I strongly dispute the "more space for passengers and cargo". The trunk is larger in the camry, but has severe limits that the Yaris, a hatchback, does not. Carrying a mini fridge, for example, is out of the question in a Camry, but easy in a Yaris (as long as you only have 1 or 2 passengers). Also, the camry has better rear-seat leg room, but much less height, such that my head (185cm) touches the roof in the back seats. Finally, the Yaris has better clearance for rough roads, and much better turning radius and visibility for city driving. (Oh, and my cost after 150000km, including purchase, fuel, and oil changes, is just approaching the purchase price of a Camry Hybrid) I wish the Yaris Hybrid, available in Japan, was available in North America.
        8y ago
newnewpdro 8y ago
The comparison in the graph you linked isn't particularly useful. The US, having cheap gasoline, uses gasoline vehicles in far more roles than say, the EU does, where diesel is far more common. "Light commercial" might as well read "should have been diesel" from an MPG standpoint.
- yholio 8y ago
  That's the point of carbon taxes, isn't it? It's irrelevant what and how people drive, and they certainly don't give a buck about carbon emissions, yet they unwittingly alter their behavior with the effect of reducing the taxed behavior. By the way, diesel is now typically more expensive than gasoline in Europe too, and the tax embodied in the price is roughly proportional to the carbon content of both. In the past there used to be a lower tax on diesel in some countries as an aid to farmers and the transport industry, but it is less common now.
  - Tepix 8y ago
    > By the way, diesel is now typically more expensive than gasoline in Europe too Really? Which countries? Not in the european countries I'm familiar with.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  Better to have the pollution we know, rather than the unknown pollution from the avreage diesel engine. American buses are 10x cleaner.
Gibbon1 8y ago
I think the issue with carbon taxes is a 10-20% reduction isn't enough. A 75% reduction is needed. Which means some sectors the reduction will have to be more than that. At that point bans make more sense.
- netcan 8y ago
  Exactly what I meant. The whole vehicle tax, externality-pricing approach does not make sense if you walk away from the chalkboard and look at the big picture. Also, not every 20% is the same. 20% reductions in emmisions because 20% of the fleet is electric-from-solar is a lot closer to 100% than 20% because of lighter cars and more efficient ICEs.
- femidav 8y ago
  Needed for what? Optimal range for plants growth is 1000-1500ppm.

by yholio 8y ago

walshemj 8y ago

Don't forget US Gallons are smaller than "proper" imperial ones

atombender 8y ago
OP is using US gallons, though.
- tom_ 8y ago
  Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average? In real life?
  - atombender 8y ago
    I'm sure that they were using US gallons. Whether this is data is accurate is another matter. According to the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), Europe averaged 46 MPG (US gallons, "normalized to CAFE test cycles") in 2015 [1], compared to something like 37 MPG in the US. This NY Times article [2] summarizes the report, with some nice graphs. [1] https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/2017-Global-LDV-Standards-Update_ICCT-Report_23062017_vF.pdf https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/201... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fuel-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/04/03/climate/us-fu...
    - thinkling 8y ago
      I share your parent's skepticism. It seems obvious that cars sold in the US are not averaging 37 MPG when the average car is roughly a RAV4 that gets 22/29.(EDIT: It occurs to me that the RAV4 may be classified as a light truck -- even so, I can go pick a passenger car...) As far as I can tell taking a quick look at your links, the difference can be in two things. First, these are fuel economy standards companies are expected to hit, and not reporting on whether they hit them or missed and paid penalties. Second there's the phrase "Assumes manufacturers fully use low-GWP A/C refrigerants credits". Apparently fuel economy numbers are boosted by these credits--actual fuel economy isn't the same thing, it appears? (EDIT: Overall fuel economy for cars and trucks combined was 24.8 mpg in MY2015 [1]) [1] https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg....
      - llukas 8y ago
        If you compare US cars to EU cars on average then: - EU cars are much smaller - hp of engines is much lower > "skepticism" "It seems obvious" Pick one please.
        thinkling 8y ago
        I wasn't saying anything about EU cars -- why are you bringing that up? I am skeptical of the 37mpg claim because it seems clear to me that the average car sold in the US isn't that efficient. What's the contradiction?
        llukas 8y ago
        Sorry, I missed that part. I think 37mpg depends on what you actually count as a car and what goes for a light truck.
        thinkling 8y ago
        See my comment in a parallel branch for data: even the US best-selling passenger cars don’t average 37 mpg.
  - wongarsu 8y ago
    The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average and maximum distance traveled (in Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips), road conditions (high population density makes offroad driving less important in rural Europe than in rural America), etc
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      That's kind of a bad comparison because the Ford F-Series (or any other pickup platform) is many different vehicles under one name.
      - merb 8y ago
        basically in europe there are not a lot of pickups to none out there. in europe there is a trend for SUVs at the moment, but besides that we mostly buy limousines.
        p1mrx 8y ago
        This is a "limousine" in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Lincoln_Town_Car_limousine.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine#/media/File:98-02_Li... So I assume you were using the "sedan" interpretation.
        teekert 8y ago
        Indeed but it's funny that most SUVs are (what I'd call) fake SUVs. They look beefy and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg (like the Hyundai ix35). And then there are the real ones that may at first glance look the same but easily pull up to or over 2400 kg (Volvo xc90 versions).
        8y ago
  - SECProto 8y ago
    Europe and Japan both use smaller engine sizes, increasing fuel economy pretty drastically compared to North America. Especially when your average speed might be 80 km/hr, rather than 80 miles an hour. I don't know if their different testing regimes reflect that (maybe). Anecdote: several years ago, I got the lightest, smallest-engined, most-efficient car I could find here in Canada, a Toyota Yaris. And using a calculator to convert units, I see that even so, it only gets me ~40 US MPG (real world) - most because of highway speeds. When I drive mostly 80km/hr, it's about 42 US MPG. When I drive mostly 120 km/hr, it's more like 36 US MPG. The same car is sold in Japan/EU with a 1.2 litre engine, vs the 1.5 litre in North America. Similar things happen with many other models.
    - stephengillie 8y ago
      A Toyota Camry Hybrid will get better MPG with a 2.5 liter engine, and give more space for passengers and cargo, than the Yaris. Also it has EV-like torque.
      - SECProto 8y ago
        My relatives drive a Camry Hybrid, and I've used it a fair bit. It certainly does have better torque, and slightly better real world mileage (5.5 litre/100km for the Camry, vs my Yaris at 6.0 litre/100km). It also drives more comfortably on the highway. It's less affected by wind/passenger weight, though downshifting to 4th has never been an issue for me. However, as a sedan, I strongly dispute the "more space for passengers and cargo". The trunk is larger in the camry, but has severe limits that the Yaris, a hatchback, does not. Carrying a mini fridge, for example, is out of the question in a Camry, but easy in a Yaris (as long as you only have 1 or 2 passengers). Also, the camry has better rear-seat leg room, but much less height, such that my head (185cm) touches the roof in the back seats. Finally, the Yaris has better clearance for rough roads, and much better turning radius and visibility for city driving. (Oh, and my cost after 150000km, including purchase, fuel, and oil changes, is just approaching the purchase price of a Camry Hybrid) I wish the Yaris Hybrid, available in Japan, was available in North America.
        8y ago

newnewpdro 8y ago

The comparison in the graph you linked isn't particularly useful. The US, having cheap gasoline, uses gasoline vehicles in far more roles than say, the EU does, where diesel is far more common. "Light commercial" might as well read "should have been diesel" from an MPG standpoint.

yholio 8y ago
That's the point of carbon taxes, isn't it? It's irrelevant what and how people drive, and they certainly don't give a buck about carbon emissions, yet they unwittingly alter their behavior with the effect of reducing the taxed behavior. By the way, diesel is now typically more expensive than gasoline in Europe too, and the tax embodied in the price is roughly proportional to the carbon content of both. In the past there used to be a lower tax on diesel in some countries as an aid to farmers and the transport industry, but it is less common now.
- Tepix 8y ago
  > By the way, diesel is now typically more expensive than gasoline in Europe too Really? Which countries? Not in the european countries I'm familiar with.
stephengillie 8y ago
Better to have the pollution we know, rather than the unknown pollution from the avreage diesel engine. American buses are 10x cleaner.

Gibbon1 8y ago

I think the issue with carbon taxes is a 10-20% reduction isn't enough. A 75% reduction is needed. Which means some sectors the reduction will have to be more than that. At that point bans make more sense.

netcan 8y ago
Exactly what I meant. The whole vehicle tax, externality-pricing approach does not make sense if you walk away from the chalkboard and look at the big picture. Also, not every 20% is the same. 20% reductions in emmisions because 20% of the fleet is electric-from-solar is a lot closer to 100% than 20% because of lighter cars and more efficient ICEs.
femidav 8y ago
Needed for what? Optimal range for plants growth is 1000-1500ppm.