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I guess the solution is to provide more charging stations, isn't it? Looks pretty straightforward to me.
by ainiriand 8y ago
I guess the solution is to provide more charging stations, isn't it? Looks pretty straightforward to me.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y agoWhat's more widely distributed than electricity?
- zymhan 8y agoFind me high-voltage high-amperage connections on the side of the freeway though.
- Gravityloss 8y agoDenmark is small, flat and relatively populated and rich. Probably you're never far from a high voltage transmission line.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y agoThat doesn't cost much (far less than a gas equivalent) and can be installed alongside highways within weeks. If people purchase EV _en masse_, they'll have charging stations everywhere. There's no egg/chicken problem here.
- ben_w 8y agoWorldwide, transport energy use is about 150% total electricity use — 30PWh/y vs. 20PWh/y. I’m not saying we can’t upgrade production (I’m actually significantly more optimistic than the best case IAE estimates), but it’s not as trivial as just installing some new wires and transformers.
- apcragg 8y agoI'm curious, is that only non-point-to-point personal transportation or does it include all forms (e.g. ocean shipping, rail, public transport)?
- ben_w 8y agoThat’s very good point, looking at my source the answer appears to be “everything”. I will try to remember that in future. However, my point is only that we will need non trivial increases in electricity production, rather than any specific number. That point still stands.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y agoYou could have a solar farm and some batteries close to each stations. It's not trivial but it isn't a bottleneck either.
- ben_w 8y agoWhen I ran the numbers for the USA, it was something along the lines of adding a 1m wide strip of normal efficiency PV alongside the entire length of the interstate network. I’ve not looked at the size of any other highway system relative to population density but I do know that Denmark gets less sunlight than the USA average. Like I said in my original comment: I’m optimistic, I just don’t think it’s trivial. To put it another way, I think it’s something that requires a government rather than being achievable purely with the private sector. That might mean just incentives and template plans, or it might require government to commission things, but it’s that sort of scale.
- tialaramex 8y agoYeah, so, the first thing to know about that is ICE is ludicrously inefficient. Spinning all that metal at variable speed with tiny explosions is, unsurprisingly, not the best way to turn high density fuels into energy. The thing ICE had on its side is the energy density, on other metrics it's a bad deal (hence why free charging for EVs is affordable) So if you have 400MW of ICE cars you don't need 400MW of electricity to replace that, something more like 80-100MW is more like it IIRC. The infrastructure build cost isn't zero, but it's much less than this 150% metric suggests.
- sbradford26 8y agoGetting some rough numbers from Wikipedia it looks like most common new cars are sitting around 35% thermal efficiency. I believe a formula 1 engine achieved 50% thermal efficiency recently but the cost of that is obscenely high. Where as electric motor efficiency easily hits 90%+.
- sfsafa 8y ago"ludicrously inefficient" No, they're not. They're, as implemented in a car, a ludicrous example of engineering compromises. Put a hybrid drive methane spark-ignition high compression engine and you'll have similar CO2 emissions from a e-car powered by a thermal plant (the vast majority of our power). It'll cost as much as a Tesla too.
- ams6110 8y agoIt's also quite inefficient to convert hydrocarbon energy to mechanical energy to electrical energy to chemical energy back to electrical energy and then back to mechanical energy, as an electric car does. ICE goes straight from hydrocarbon to mechanical. It would not surprise me if it's more efficient, though I don't know.
- kalms 8y agoThey're already common along the highways in DK (incl. a few Superchargers) Map: https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tesla+supercharger+denmark&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=55585886,12388391,17768&tbm=lcl&ved=2ahUKEwiP6f2R2-rdAhWjsaQKHfiPCh8QtgN6BAgAEAQ&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui:4&rldoc=1#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:!3m8!1m3!1d1007839.8511401694!2d9.261467997194814!3d56.472387334207546!3m2!1i1011!2i686!4f13.1 https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tesla+s...
- stephengillie 8y agoGasoline
- olivermarks 8y agoDelivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltage direct current supergrid to accommodate future EV needs (using primarily coal as a power source). I don't see this happening anywhere else? http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21714325-transmitting-power-over-thousands-kilometres-requires-new-electricity http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/2171432...
- bluGill 8y agoI don't know what the situation is in Europe, but in the US farmers use a lot of power. They have welders and other such tools that can draw 50 amps or more. The motors for their drying fans are drawing 20 amps each (and several of them can run at once). Note that the above amp figures are at 240 volts just like power in Europe, not the lower 120 we use for lights and fridges.
- olivermarks 8y agocontinuous draw for hundreds of thousands of batteries is vastly more than this example
- davidgould 8y agoWhat is the application for hundreds of thousands of batteries on a farm?
- Symbiote 8y agoDenmark doesn't really have "remote areas" by the standards of large countries. Here's a map of the high voltage power grid. I don't think anywhere is more than 50km from a transmission line. https://en.energinet.dk/-/media/9160AAB5C484432399767220B78DE44D.jpg https://en.energinet.dk/-/media/9160AAB5C484432399767220B78D... The increase will be gradual, and no doubt the power grid company is already planning for it.
- Annatar 8y agoVery straightforward. Now, who's going to foot that bill?
- maxxxxx 8y agoA charging station is probably cheaper than a gas station to build.
- walshemj 8y agoId like to see your figures on that.
- maxxxxx 8y agoI have no numbers but it seems a charging station is simpler. No gas tank to bury, no risk of leakage, no fire hazards.
- outworlder 8y agoA couple years ago, a quick charger (CHAdeMO, not Tesla's) cost about 50k. Not sure what kind of permits were required. Can you build a gas station with 50k? How much is just the labor to bury the underground tank? And that's a quick charger, which you would use mostly for trips. For most purposes you only need easily accessible power outlets (although the level 2 stations are far more convenient). Most cars are sitting in parking lots most of the time anyway.
- mattlondon 8y agoSame people who footed the bill for petrol/gas stations? I.e. commercial operators who want to sell you coffee/snacks/flowers/other high-markup items as well as fuel/energy. Added bonus for EV: longer dwell time while waiting for a fast-charge means more likely to spend spend spend (perhaps)
- Annatar 8y ago