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I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of t

• ainiriand 8y ago
  I guess the solution is to provide more charging stations, isn't it? Looks pretty straightforward to me.
  • rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    What's more widely distributed than electricity?
    • zymhan 8y ago
      Find me high-voltage high-amperage connections on the side of the freeway though.
      • Gravityloss 8y ago
        Denmark is small, flat and relatively populated and rich. Probably you're never far from a high voltage transmission line.
      • rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
        That doesn't cost much (far less than a gas equivalent) and can be installed alongside highways within weeks. If people purchase EV _en masse_, they'll have charging stations everywhere. There's no egg/chicken problem here.
        • ben_w 8y ago
          Worldwide, transport energy use is about 150% total electricity use — 30PWh/y vs. 20PWh/y. I’m not saying we can’t upgrade production (I’m actually significantly more optimistic than the best case IAE estimates), but it’s not as trivial as just installing some new wires and transformers.
          • apcragg 8y ago
            I'm curious, is that only non-point-to-point personal transportation or does it include all forms (e.g. ocean shipping, rail, public transport)?
            • ben_w 8y ago
              That’s very good point, looking at my source the answer appears to be “everything”. I will try to remember that in future. However, my point is only that we will need non trivial increases in electricity production, rather than any specific number. That point still stands.
          • rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
            You could have a solar farm and some batteries close to each stations. It's not trivial but it isn't a bottleneck either.
            • ben_w 8y ago
              When I ran the numbers for the USA, it was something along the lines of adding a 1m wide strip of normal efficiency PV alongside the entire length of the interstate network. I’ve not looked at the size of any other highway system relative to population density but I do know that Denmark gets less sunlight than the USA average. Like I said in my original comment: I’m optimistic, I just don’t think it’s trivial. To put it another way, I think it’s something that requires a government rather than being achievable purely with the private sector. That might mean just incentives and template plans, or it might require government to commission things, but it’s that sort of scale.
          • 8y ago
      • kalms 8y ago
        They're already common along the highways in DK (incl. a few Superchargers) Map: https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tesla+supercharger+denmark&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=55585886,12388391,17768&tbm=lcl&ved=2ahUKEwiP6f2R2-rdAhWjsaQKHfiPCh8QtgN6BAgAEAQ&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui:4&rldoc=1#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:!3m8!1m3!1d1007839.8511401694!2d9.261467997194814!3d56.472387334207546!3m2!1i1011!2i686!4f13.1 https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tesla+s...
    • stephengillie 8y ago
      Gasoline
    • olivermarks 8y ago
      Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltage direct current supergrid to accommodate future EV needs (using primarily coal as a power source). I don't see this happening anywhere else? http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21714325-transmitting-power-over-thousands-kilometres-requires-new-electricity http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/2171432...
      • bluGill 8y ago
        I don't know what the situation is in Europe, but in the US farmers use a lot of power. They have welders and other such tools that can draw 50 amps or more. The motors for their drying fans are drawing 20 amps each (and several of them can run at once). Note that the above amp figures are at 240 volts just like power in Europe, not the lower 120 we use for lights and fridges.
        • olivermarks 8y ago
          continuous draw for hundreds of thousands of batteries is vastly more than this example
          • davidgould 8y ago
            What is the application for hundreds of thousands of batteries on a farm?
      • Symbiote 8y ago
        Denmark doesn't really have "remote areas" by the standards of large countries. Here's a map of the high voltage power grid. I don't think anywhere is more than 50km from a transmission line. https://en.energinet.dk/-/media/9160AAB5C484432399767220B78DE44D.jpg https://en.energinet.dk/-/media/9160AAB5C484432399767220B78D... The increase will be gradual, and no doubt the power grid company is already planning for it.
  • Annatar 8y ago
    Very straightforward. Now, who's going to foot that bill?
    • maxxxxx 8y ago
      A charging station is probably cheaper than a gas station to build.
      • walshemj 8y ago
        Id like to see your figures on that.
        • maxxxxx 8y ago
          I have no numbers but it seems a charging station is simpler. No gas tank to bury, no risk of leakage, no fire hazards.
          • outworlder 8y ago
            A couple years ago, a quick charger (CHAdeMO, not Tesla's) cost about 50k. Not sure what kind of permits were required. Can you build a gas station with 50k? How much is just the labor to bury the underground tank? And that's a quick charger, which you would use mostly for trips. For most purposes you only need easily accessible power outlets (although the level 2 stations are far more convenient). Most cars are sitting in parking lots most of the time anyway.
    • mattlondon 8y ago
      Same people who footed the bill for petrol/gas stations? I.e. commercial operators who want to sell you coffee/snacks/flowers/other high-markup items as well as fuel/energy. Added bonus for EV: longer dwell time while waiting for a fast-charge means more likely to spend spend spend (perhaps)
      • Annatar 8y ago
• toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Is this not enough charging stations? https://i.imgur.com/dd9Jdzf.png https://i.imgur.com/dd9Jdzf.png (Orange are high power chargers, green are lower power chargers, source is plugshare.com)
  • Annatar 8y ago
    For two million cars?
    • vidarh 8y ago
      Denmark is small enough that with typical EVs today, you can drive tip to tip, pretty much. There are some journeys you might need to charge for, but not many of the journeys most people would make very often.
  • jillesvangurp 8y ago
    And that's not counting people's own charging points at home. Most people will rarely need a public one as they can probably do several of their daily commutes on a single charge.
    • toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Indeed. Not only do I charge at home primarily, I installed two public chargers out on my large driveway for additional EV charging in the event my nearby Supercharger is full (my chargers are ClipperCreek, are EV agnostic, and advertised on PlugShare). My employer installed several stations as well at my request when Tesla was still offering equipment for free (equal parts Tesla specific chargers and generic EV chargers), which I plug into when at the office, but only to stay topped up while my vehicle actively keeps itself cool in the Florida sun.
• ATsch 8y ago
  I presume that hybrid cars will solve this problem for remote travellers.
  • emodendroket 8y ago
    Which you'd expect to basically become a niche case eventually.
• interfixus 8y ago
  I live in the furthest, most godforsaken boondocks of Denmark. I see Teslas almost daily. Of course I do. There's probably nowhere in the country I couldn't reach on a single charge.
• audunw 8y ago
  How far ahead are you thinking? BEVs are likely to match pure ICEVs (I.e. not counting hybrids) in range in the not too distant future. Yeah you could theoretically put in a bigger fuel tank, or bring extra gasoline. But I mean a standard light vehicle that doesn't sacrifice storage space. Meanwhile, if you get enough EVs on the road, you'll soon have charging stations everywhere. We already see it here in Norway. Almost every roadside McDonalds have rapid chargers. There are a couple of supermarket chains that have gotten pretty good at having chargers in many of their supermarkets.
  • kwhitefoot 8y ago
    > There are a couple of supermarket chains that have gotten pretty good at having chargers in many of their supermarkets. Not where I am. I've recently driven several times from Drammen to Trondheim and never seen a charger at any of the supermarkets I passed on the way. I don't mean they don't exist, just that I didn't see them, can you list a few of them?
• WhompingWindows 8y ago
  Send yourself back in time to when less than 1% of the populace is using petrol cars to get around. In that timeframe of the early 1900's, it would've been incredibly hard to get around the rural areas as well, since they'd still be dominated by horse, foot, and perhaps bicycle traffic. Now, send yourself forward 100 years: it will be nearly impossible to use petrol-powered transport, and EV will be the standard. Saying the current infrastructure is inadequate for a new mode of transport is a truism. Infrastructure takes decades to build out, of course EV's will not be expected to have huge charging infrastructures while less than 1% of cars are EV. Long term, It'll be just as easy, if not easier, to get around in the future. Consider all the new transport tech that's emerging: electric bikes, scooters, fully self-driving vehicles, drones which can carry people, VTOL aircraft, hyperloop, etc. They are all more interesting and promising than the current noxious fume spewing transport. I'm excited for even 1/3 of those options to come to fruition :)
  • eanzenberg 8y ago
    That's cool, I'd like to avoid 1900 era death-rates lul.
  • cptaj 8y ago
    I absolutely agree with you about infrastructure. Its definitely coming and will cover most use cases. But I do wonder how we're gonna cover that last mile. Adding hundreds of miles of range to an ICE car is hilariously simple, just a couple of plastic containers in the trunk and you're good to go. Can't add extra batteries like that. Energy density is not a truism. Maybe portable ICE generators, sort of like hybrid addons for full EVs. I really liked the hybrid tech. I don't know why its not dominating.
    • bluGill 8y ago
      There are power lines to most places already. The utility replaces/upgrades them on a schedule (IIRC the expected lifespan for overhead lines last for 17 years, underground for 15). Which is to say the infrastructure is mostly there, and just needs updates that would happen anyway.
• vidarh 8y ago
  Difficult why? It's a tiny country. Skagen (Northernmost tip) to Flensburg in Germany is ~402km. Skagen to Copenhagen (East) is 410km. The longest reasonable point to point journey in Denmark is in the 550km or so range (e.g. Skagen to Lolland), though you can certainly end up with longer journeys if you pick more convoluted routes for sight-seeing and end up having to charge, this will not be a typical journey for most people. And most of the population is located within a much smaller part of the country. And this is with 12 years to expand charging networks and for vehicles to increase range before a ban on new petrol/diesel car sales, and in other words many more years before everyone will be forced to use an electric.
  • PopeDotNinja 8y ago
    > Difficult why? It's a tiny country. You're not wrong. I was just wondering how people would get around. Factors that made me wonder included: - when you're sightseeing, it's faster to buy gas (in today's era) than to charge to full battery - the place I parked my car each night was not near a charging station and/or outlet - having infrastructure in place to drive all over makes means there's less friction to go to remote places, and if there's less demand for remote places in the future, there may be less infrastructure near those places I'm not trying to make argue any specific point here. I was just wondering. And even though Denmark is a tiny country, many other are damn huge!
    • aembleton 8y ago
      Those petrol stations are only there because of all of the petrol/diesel powered cars on the road. By saying that there will be no new petrol/diesel cars sold by 2035, you can guess that most cars will be electric by 2045. That means that investment can take place in setting up charging infrastructure around the country. Now businesses can invest in charging networks, safe in the knowledge that the demand will come. It's not here yet but it will be there.
• linuxftw 8y ago
  > I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. They won't. Corporations will own the land, you'll be allowed to visit designated 'wilderness areas' on a lottery system, transported by public transit. Perhaps really remote destinations are only open to those with lots of merit points. Most people will be forced into city dwellings, high density housing, reminiscent of soviet apartments, albeit the housing will most likely be more aesthetically pleasing. There won't be anyone to visit in the country side. You might be allowed to rent a community bicycle and perhaps bike to far off destinations. They'll likely be in disrepair and you probably won't be able to use them past a certain location.
• maaaats 8y ago
  I biked through Denmark a few years back. It's a really small country. So a modern electric car would need like one stop to recharge in the middle somewhere?
• jopsen 8y ago
  The local news is reporting the plan is to stop sales of diesel cars. Not gasoline... Regardless, if we force the market, electric cars will catch up. But bans probably won't do the trick, I bet it'll take incentives in terms of higher taxes on gasoline and lower on electric cars.
• lazyjones 8y ago
  Did any of these places lack electricity, or why do you think an electric car would have been problematic? I just came back from a 2800 Km trip through rural Italy (5 days) and had no issues at all (OK, except for crappy roads and bad Google Maps data routing me through buildings etc.).
• fineline 8y ago
  I used to think the same about where I live - Australia - a lot bigger and more sparsely populated than Denmark. But here is an article about the first woman (and second person) to drive around the country in an EV: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much... and two maps of the network in 2016 and 2018, showing the effort (by Tesla owners club!) in building out the network: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much... Yep they're not all superchargers, many are just EV friendly 240v hookups. But as the lady in the first article said "the reality is that if you can see the lights on, or that the kettle works, then you can charge". Got me thinking about my next car. Or campervan. We often camp in caravan parks - with a 15 amp hookup plugged into the vehicle...