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Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship
- Ajedi32 8y agoSo it's just a way to backport support for DNS-over-TLS to older Android versions? Neat, but not as big a deal as the article headline might lead you to believe.
- kypro 8y agoSounds like a cool way to track users wherever they go on the web.
- kylnew 8y agoWithout looking into the Privacy Policy for details on tracking, it seems like this would be a lesser of two evils situation. Either experience censorship in your country or see everything, with the caveat that Google logs it.
- bad_alloc 8y agoA country that censors content will be very interested in obtaining these logs from Google. Since they seem to be willing to cooperate with state actors, users might set themselves up for reprecussions later on.
- kylnew 8y agoNo kidding. That was my next thought among other issues with the plan, but I'm trying not to be too cynical about what will happen to the data. I won't be using this any time soon, personally.
- lallysingh 8y agoSo choose another DNS server. It's configurable.
- m-p-3 8y agoIt's basically a DNS-over-HTTPS client for Android, acting as a VPN client to route DNS traffic only. You can use your own DNS-over-HTTPS server if you want to.
- Belphemur 8y agoI've been using Intra with my own DoH server for months already. It's stable and updated regulary: https://github.com/Jigsaw-Code/intra https://github.com/Jigsaw-Code/intra Also, if you're looking for a DoH server that block adverts, here is mine: https://dns.aaflalo.me/dns-query https://dns.aaflalo.me/dns-query
- Boulth 8y ago> Also, if you're looking for a DoH server that block adverts, here is mine: > https://dns.aaflalo.me/dns-query https://dns.aaflalo.me/dns-query Great! I've been looking for something like this for a long time. Is the source code open? Not that I don't trust you with my DNS queries but...
- Belphemur 8y agoI've written the step I used to do the DoH part. https://www.aaflalo.me/2018/10/tutorial-setup-dns-over-https-server/ https://www.aaflalo.me/2018/10/tutorial-setup-dns-over-https... Still need to document the PiHole part. I've also disable all logging for Nginx and Pihole. The server is also listed on https://dnscrypt.info/public-servers https://dnscrypt.info/public-servers Also, if you're in the American Continent, you might want to use the proxy I setup on Google Cloud Platform: https://dns-gcp.aaflalo.me/dns-query https://dns-gcp.aaflalo.me/dns-query
- Boulth 8y agoVery cool, thanks a lot I'll be definitely using your guide.
- sharcerer 8y agoDoes your server allow Google Ads because honestly, I would feel like a hypocrite blocking their ads as those ads basically pay for what Jigsaw does. Just saying.
- Belphemur 8y ago
- stevespang 8y agoYep, Google will likely use ANY and ALL information here as well, is it possible that user info could be sold back to oppressive Gov't's under the table for big bucks ? . Isn't it possible to achieve all this solely with Cloudflare ?
- 21 8y agoThis is richly ironic. I had to check that this was not an article from The Onion. Will this tool bypass the censored Google that will be introduced in China? More likely it will automatically report the user to the Chinese government if used in China.
- mtgx 8y agoIt probably won't even be available to Chinese users.
- 394549 8y agoMaybe it will, but have a country-specific feature to report its users to the authorities. After all, gotta comply with those "local laws and regulations."
- bilbo0s 8y agoIt wouldn't work in China anyway. So it can be available there, or not available there. Would make no functional difference.
- elbracitosNIR 8y agoCould you please stop talking bad about Google? It’s against the site guidelines [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- thecatspaw 8y agoCtrl F: "google" -> 0 results
- komali2 8y agoHahaha, that had to be deadpan humor.
- bubblethink 8y agoThis is about preventing dns manipulation attacks. That assumes that a DNS server (like 8.8.8.8) is generally accessible, but an adversary is trying to manipulate the responses. In China, you anyway can't access regular global dns servers. You need to use official dns supported by the government. So the question of dns manipulation is moot.
- jerkstate 8y agoGiven Google's track record of working with oppressive governments, why would anyone rational trust them with this kind of sensitive information?
- sharcerer 8y agoI think Jigsaw has a good record of making tools which work for the oppressed sections or in areas of cybersecurity/censorship etc. Good work must be appreciated. I don't think any other Big Co. has a division dedicated to solving such specific problems. Yeah, the China bit is really saddening/irritating. They're gonna crush their own legacy.
- r3bl 8y agoDon't forget about the Project Zero team! Regardless of my privacy concerns regarding Google and other Alphabet-owned businesses, Jigsaw and Project Zero teams deserve to be praised by anyone who gives a shit about privacy/security.
- sharcerer 8y agoProject Zero is the reason I regard Google's security as one of the best (possibly the best). They haven't had any major/minor leak, IIRC, which is a huge deal. I mean even if 1 data leak occurred in the next 2 years, I wouldn't be that pissed off (T&C Apply). Accomplishments of these 2 teams deserve more mention.
- pjc50 8y agoWhat this appears to be is a DNS-over-HTTPs proxy application, which will route your DNS traffic directly to Google bypassing any substitutions or deletions made by your local ISP or government. Whether the advantages of that outweigh giving google your DNS traffic (and realistically they already know every site you visit, because almost everyone uses google analytics) depends on your local security situation. Note that your local security situation may include the good old rubber hose attack: https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/194353/police-forcing-me-to-install-jingwang-spyware-app-how-to-minimize-impact https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/194353/police-f...
- daveFNbuck 8y agoIt can be configured to use any DNS-over-HTTPs server, and has cloudflare hard-coded as an option. When you first install it, they have a short onboarding that ends with asking you to enable needed permissions and informing you that you can use other providers, so you have a chance to change the settings before enabling the permissions.
- LethargicStud 8y agoCan someone explain why a government couldn't block the IP of this service? Whether it's a VPN or just dns over https, it seems the servers wouldn't have infinite dynamic ips and could therefore be blocked.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- philip1209 8y agoThese dual standards for censorship annoy me. Google on Venezuelan censoring: bad, fight it Google on Chinese censoring: complicit, support it
- malvosenior 8y agoGoogle on Google censorship: ship it! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/22/youtube-bans-more-firearms-videos-days-before-national-rally-for-gun-control https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/2...
- notyourday 8y agoYou see, Venezuelans dont have enough money for Google to extract.
- Shivetya 8y agoGoogle isn't the only big tech company to cave to China's demands
- aikah 8y agoGoogle is one of these US tech companies claiming they have moral values in their code of conduct, using such words as "evil".
- mattigames 8y agoThey no longer use that word.
- surajrmal 8y agoThat's incorrect, it's still in the code of conduct. It's the last statement: https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html
- 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- fstonemeyer 8y agoThis is the same division of Google that came up with an AI to determine if a comment is "toxic": https://jigsaw.google.com/projects/#perspective https://jigsaw.google.com/projects/#perspective
- calimac 8y agoShows that Schmidt and Cohen are continuing their decade plus track record of developing tech to control or insight populations to effect the change in government. COHEN and Schmidt used tools in the Arab spring to manipulate the protestors to believe the majority of their their social network connections were protesting. Wikileaks has a trove of Cohen email to shine light on what he’s up to.
- jillesvangurp 8y agoSounds like a good idea. Most users have so far very little control over android dns and using TLS sounds like a good idea in any case. Makes you wonder why this is not more widespread given that there are a lot of nasty attacks that involve dns hacks.
- msravi 8y agoFirefox 62 has DoH support enabled. https://blog.nightly.mozilla.org/2018/06/01/improving-dns-privacy-in-firefox/ https://blog.nightly.mozilla.org/2018/06/01/improving-dns-pr... Has been plenty useful getting around court -ordered clampdowns on torrent sites in India. You can configure it to use any publicly known DoH server: https://github.com/curl/curl/wiki/DNS-over-HTTPS#publicly-available-servers https://github.com/curl/curl/wiki/DNS-over-HTTPS#publicly-av...
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y agoI find it ironic that both CloudFlare and Google which this app uses, were involved in the censorship of DailyStormer. It was a vile site and Google and ClouFlare were fully within their rights to terminate their business agreement with them. However, they do not also get to turn around and claim the high moral ground of being anti-censorship in principle. So this is not about censorship vs free speech, it is about government vs corporate censorship.
- s73v3r_ 8y agoChoosing not to do business with a company is NOT censorship. The only way you could believe it to be so is if you believe that the Daily Stormer has a right to speech, but no one else does.
- r3bl 8y agoCan we get a rename of this story? "Alphabet's Jigsaw" would be more appropriate. Jigsaw is, at best, a sibling of Google, not a part of Google. It is explained in the very first sentence, but comments so far don't seem to acknowledge that.
- ghostly_s 8y agoWell, the story also claims there are plans to build it in to Android, so apparently they are at least working in close concert.
- briandear 8y agoSemantics. No rational person would believe that anyone other than Larry Page is calling the shots.
- mikeash 8y agoThis is an interesting communications dilemma. I don't think most people have really understood the Google/Alphabet transition. When most people think of "Google" they're actually thinking of Alphabet. If you say "Google" then you're conveying the correct information using the wrong term. If you say "Alphabet" then you're using the right term but a lot of people won't know what you're talking about. What to do? This is probably less of a problem on HN than it is for TechCrunch.
- CydeWeys 8y agoI would really hope that everyone on HN knows what Alphabet is by now. If necessary, it can be written as "Alphabet (Google's parent company)". The TechCrunch crowd is pretty similar and should mostly know this too, right?
- blfr 8y agoDon't know about most people but I understand the idea of a holding company. I don't care though. It's still Google because it's the most important part. A synecdoche, not a misconception.
- r3bl 8y ago
- samat 8y agoThe problem Intra solves is very real. MiTM attack on the DNS are the simplest ways to censor internet access and they are widely used in many countries. I do despise google's efforts in dismantling any privacy which is left on the internet, but this particular program is very good. I don't get this attitude of 'don't take a cake from the devil'. A) google is not devil, just another megacorp B) don't be blinded with slogans, evaluate merits of each offer individually. This particular offer is great and helps real people aka 'makes the world a better place', lol.
- x220 8y agoIf Google considers handing off private info to China, which is known to execute people with disliked political beliefs, it's not self-evidently wrong to compare Google and their executives to the devil. Edit: if you want to downvote, please also reply with your ideas and tell me why you disagree with me.
- r3bl 8y agoI've seen no comment here ever praising Google's actions in China here, and I'm very doubtful I will. That said, this particular product, which has nothing to do Google's business with China, is absolutely crucial for people facing censorship elsewhere, and it is without a doubt a morally good product. You can't even claim that they're doing it solely to gather DNS data (for whatever reason), because if they were making an attempt at that, they would sure as fuck wouldn't allow you to choose Cloudflare. You can sit here and call that hypocritical because of Google's relationship in China, but that doesn't make their solution any less good to those facing censorship. Nobody else stepped up. Jigsaw did, and they deserve to be thanked for that. Even if someone's intentions are evil in nature, you're not going to make them less evil by saying "who cares, you're evil" whenever they do something good.
- jigaway2 8y agoI couldn't help but guffaw at this headline, given that Jigsaw's current flagship product is an automated censorship bot [1]. This is another example of the absurd belief that only ISPs can censor the internet, and not trillion dollar platform companies with monopolies or near-monopolies in several areas. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/technology/google-jigsaw-monitor-toxic-online-comments.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/technology/google-jigsaw-...
- marcusjt 8y agoPlay Store URL is https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=app.intra https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=app.intra
- wnevets 8y agoI've been using Jigsaw's VPN Outline, it seems to work pretty good on digital ocean
- sigmar 8y agoanyone using this on LineageOS 15.1? Seems to connect okay, but chrome gives "err_network_changed" when I go to any site and I'm not sure how to debug...
- ccnafr 8y agoSource, for a lot more details: https://medium.com/@JigsawTeam/introducing-intra-a-new-app-to-stop-dns-manipulation-f76de3f5d01 https://medium.com/@JigsawTeam/introducing-intra-a-new-app-t...
- bArray 8y agoThe app itself fails a DNS leak test, is this app trustworthy?
- bad_user 8y agoGood job Google. I'm a very harsh critique of Google due to the threat they pose for privacy, however here they are doing a good thing, along the lines of the public DNS servers they provide, which I know have helped people [1]. Having your requests go through Google is not ideal, however not many people have the capacity to search for better, but more obscure solutions. Also this isn't about privacy, but about working around censorship at the DNS level. If you want privacy, you use an anonymous VPN or Tor. And frankly, if you can't trust Google's privacy policy for this service, then you shouldn't use a Google phone. [1] https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/ https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/
- asimpletune 8y agoIt’s cool though that they allow you to use cloud flare if you want.
- i_phish_cats 8y agoAnd yet another part of the company is creating a censored version so that the CCP will let them back into china.
- anotherevan 8y agoYes, that irony was not lost on me either. I was thinking that someone should introduce Google's left and right hands to each other.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bduerst 8y agoI mean, China's the one censoring it. Google could link to the censored websites in the results but that would be a terrible user experience. Wouldn't it be better to do what they do with DMCA takedowns in the US, where they tell you how many results have been removed and why? And Google already censors search results in the EU with the right to be forgotten, where they've received 41,000 requests from EU politicians, so there is precedence in working with local governments
- apeace 8y ago1) What's stopping these countries from blocking the hard-coded Google/Cloudflare IP addresses? Doesn't seem like a great solution technically speaking. 2) I wouldn't use this if I lived in China. Companies operating in China are required to turn over data about their users to the government. And Google is soon going to be partnering with China to release a censored version of their search engine[1]. Now they can provide the government your entire browsing history, not just your searches! [1] https://theintercept.com/2018/08/01/google-china-search-engine-censorship/ https://theintercept.com/2018/08/01/google-china-search-engi...
- tomp 8y ago> That makes it easy for oppressive governments — like Turkey, which has used this technique before — to intercept web addresses requests and either kill them in their tracks to stop sites from loading, or redirect to a fake site. Or "non-oppressive" governments like the UK.
- SonnyWortzik 8y agooh just turn it on an use it huh? And collect all of my web queries. Clever. Yet another mass collection scheme by Alphabet. I have to give it to Google(the real company here), they sure know how to embed themselves everywhere in your life.
- codr4 8y agoSecurity apps from the Alphabet agency's cyber unit, nice. At least they're not mandatory here yet...
- e40 8y agoNear as I can tell, can't be used with things like Blokada that create a VPN.
- jedisct1 8y agoIn other DNS-over-HTTPS news, dnscrypt-proxy 2.0.17 has been released: https://github.com/jedisct1/dnscrypt-proxy https://github.com/jedisct1/dnscrypt-proxy
- thefounder 8y agoHow is this different than simply setting Google's DNS servers on your router or wifi settings ?