5 ms·

I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel disheartened at the sad state of affairs when 8 hour days, 40 hours per week can be sold as something pseudo-revolutionary.

by jahaja 8y ago

I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel disheartened at the sad state of affairs when 8 hour days, 40 hours per week can be sold as something pseudo-revolutionary. This industry is in dire need of some humble pie, and for employees to realize, to a greater extent than today, that they're workers, not business partners. Do people really think that a new plumbing firm calling itself a startup would enable them to hire cheap plumbers working 50% unpaid overtime for a half-arsed profit-share promise that maybe this new posh area will cause a great expansion in the future? No, the plumbers would know they're getting shafted. Anyway, maybe this book can be a step in a humbling direction. The last two books were indeed filled with a lot of common sense that should be repeated.

chobeat 8y ago
woah woah woah, calm down. That sounds like... socialism... There's no such a thing in software engineering. Engineering is free from politics, labour issues, ethical concerns and all that pseudo-intellectual bullshit. Engineering is just engineering man. A guy with a fedora on reddit told me so.
- sctb 8y ago
  Please don't post fluffy sarcastic flamebait here. We'd like to have discussions from which we can learn something. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
mhjas 8y ago
Decent working condition have always been revolutionary for a large part of the world. Overall things haven't changed, at least not for the better. I like a lot of what dhh says, but I think the weak part of his arguments is probably practicality. There are plenty of people that agree with him in principle, but are destined to make other choices because of the way the world works. That said, if there ever was a time when quality of life mattered it is now. I am convinced that whichever country can scale quality of life will have success. Pretty much everyone of the established startup hubs, and even the non-established ones, are essentially limited not by knowledge, capital or workforce but quality of life. When cities say they lack companies, or companies say they lack workforce, or the workforce say they lack salary, it is really that money isn't buying them the quality of life needed to be effective.
goatherders 8y ago
"...for employee to realize that they're workers, not business partners." Absolutely. This is, in my opinion, the biggest issue in all this.
germinalphrase 8y ago
I suspect overworking is more prevelant than you’re acknowledging for salaried workers. For instance, I’m a high school teacher. I and many of my colleagues are routinely working 50-60 hrs/wk. If you’re not being billed for hours, why wouldn’t you keep expanding your workers’ obligations until the cracks appear?
- duncan-donuts 8y ago
  Because you care about the well-being of your workforce? Greed doesn’t _always_ have to prevail.
  - germinalphrase 8y ago
    In my specific situation, greed isn’t exactly at play. My boss doesn’t have any direct financial stake in the outcome of our/my work. And yet - my workload and occupational expectations are such that I’m routinely in a position requiring significant overtime. I’m also aware that this is often true in other public school districts, less true in private schools, and even worse in many charter school networks. Teaching is an emotionally exhausting job; however, it’s the combination of intensity + working hours + low compensation that pushes me toward industry (anyone looking for a UX Research Assistant in the Minneapolis area?)
- teekert 8y ago
  "why wouldn’t you keep expanding your workers’ obligations until the cracks appear?" Maybe because you are a nice guy? I hope I'll never have a boss with your ethics, I'd be gone very fast.
  - germinalphrase 8y ago
    You misread my comments. These are not my ethics, nor am I in any sort of leadership position. I am merely pointing out that unpaid overtime/wage theft/whatever is probably more common than the OP acknowledges. This is obviously unfortunate and a likely a work culture problem in the US.
- 8y ago
czep 8y ago
I saw a sign on the highway advertising productivity software for your commute! The fact that someone finds a market need for people to work while they're driving is a sign we really jumped the shark at some point.
- kozak 8y ago
  What exactly is being advertised? It would be interesting to know what kind of work can be safely done while driving.
- mgkimsal 8y ago
  some people car share. if you're sitting in someone's passenger seat for 75 minutes, but you can get some stuff done that's not small talk or radio time... why not?
EGreg 8y ago
I think that, in many ways, a transparent and inclusive compensation model that allows people to CHOOSE to share in the company’s profits can be less exploitative than Full Time Employment: https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributions/ https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributi...

by jahaja 8y ago

chobeat 8y ago

woah woah woah, calm down. That sounds like... socialism... There's no such a thing in software engineering. Engineering is free from politics, labour issues, ethical concerns and all that pseudo-intellectual bullshit. Engineering is just engineering man. A guy with a fedora on reddit told me so.

sctb 8y ago
Please don't post fluffy sarcastic flamebait here. We'd like to have discussions from which we can learn something. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

mhjas 8y ago

Decent working condition have always been revolutionary for a large part of the world. Overall things haven't changed, at least not for the better. I like a lot of what dhh says, but I think the weak part of his arguments is probably practicality. There are plenty of people that agree with him in principle, but are destined to make other choices because of the way the world works. That said, if there ever was a time when quality of life mattered it is now. I am convinced that whichever country can scale quality of life will have success. Pretty much everyone of the established startup hubs, and even the non-established ones, are essentially limited not by knowledge, capital or workforce but quality of life. When cities say they lack companies, or companies say they lack workforce, or the workforce say they lack salary, it is really that money isn't buying them the quality of life needed to be effective.

goatherders 8y ago

"...for employee to realize that they're workers, not business partners." Absolutely. This is, in my opinion, the biggest issue in all this.

germinalphrase 8y ago

I suspect overworking is more prevelant than you’re acknowledging for salaried workers. For instance, I’m a high school teacher. I and many of my colleagues are routinely working 50-60 hrs/wk. If you’re not being billed for hours, why wouldn’t you keep expanding your workers’ obligations until the cracks appear?

duncan-donuts 8y ago
Because you care about the well-being of your workforce? Greed doesn’t _always_ have to prevail.
- germinalphrase 8y ago
  In my specific situation, greed isn’t exactly at play. My boss doesn’t have any direct financial stake in the outcome of our/my work. And yet - my workload and occupational expectations are such that I’m routinely in a position requiring significant overtime. I’m also aware that this is often true in other public school districts, less true in private schools, and even worse in many charter school networks. Teaching is an emotionally exhausting job; however, it’s the combination of intensity + working hours + low compensation that pushes me toward industry (anyone looking for a UX Research Assistant in the Minneapolis area?)
teekert 8y ago
"why wouldn’t you keep expanding your workers’ obligations until the cracks appear?" Maybe because you are a nice guy? I hope I'll never have a boss with your ethics, I'd be gone very fast.
- germinalphrase 8y ago
  You misread my comments. These are not my ethics, nor am I in any sort of leadership position. I am merely pointing out that unpaid overtime/wage theft/whatever is probably more common than the OP acknowledges. This is obviously unfortunate and a likely a work culture problem in the US.
8y ago

czep 8y ago

I saw a sign on the highway advertising productivity software for your commute! The fact that someone finds a market need for people to work while they're driving is a sign we really jumped the shark at some point.

kozak 8y ago
What exactly is being advertised? It would be interesting to know what kind of work can be safely done while driving.
mgkimsal 8y ago
some people car share. if you're sitting in someone's passenger seat for 75 minutes, but you can get some stuff done that's not small talk or radio time... why not?

EGreg 8y ago

I think that, in many ways, a transparent and inclusive compensation model that allows people to CHOOSE to share in the company’s profits can be less exploitative than Full Time Employment: https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributions/ https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributi...