7 ms·

One thing I find fascinating about the article is that it's assumed the cleverness was the code written to automate. This is incorrect; the cleverness is in not

One thing I find fascinating about the article is that it's assumed the cleverness was the code written to automate. This is incorrect; the cleverness is in noticing when a task can be automated. Typically, the code itself is trivial. I have told my work more than once that if they wanted to get the most out of me they should put me on the "front line" for a month or two, and let me decide what needs to be automated. It has always been laughed off as me being cute.

xorcist 8y ago
It wouldn't surprise me if you found out that some work is useless in the first place. Many people lack the bigger picture of what the purpose of operations really are. That's what easy to miss when thinking in terms of "automation". Automating existing work doesn't move us forward very much. Making the work unnecessary is.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
If your work is "laughing off" your suggestions and putting you down I'd seriously consider finding a better employer.
- collyw 8y ago
  Managers always think that they are smarter than coders. Lets face it if they admitted that we could make business decision well there wouldn't be much need for them.
  - wartijn_ 8y ago
    Works just as well the other way around. Every time managers are mentioned at HN, some programmer is sure they can do a better job than their/most/all managers.
    - jinfiesto 8y ago
      That's because programmers can do management. It's not unusual to see engineers get tracked into management. I have certainly never seen it go the other way (partially because managers usually make more than engineers I'm sure.)
      - rplst8 8y ago
        To add to that, you can't be a human being on this planet without some sort of management skills.
      - softawre 8y ago
        Yeah, and most of the time (at least at places I've worked) the managers are former coders. So arguing that all managers are stupid just seems silly to me. Also, yes - anybody can do management, and anybody can do coding. Learning to do either effectively is a skill.
  - majormajor 8y ago
    > Lets face it if they admitted that we could make business decision well there wouldn't be much need for them. Are you just making these decisions off the top of your head? Or are you talking to people, having research done, soliciting feedback, etc? In the latter case, congrats, now you're a manager! :p (If you're at a small company, you've probably still got enough time to do some hands-on work too...) IME bad technical managers don't occur at any higher frequency than bad engineers; I haven't worked in other industries to know what it looks like there. But you get a lot more immediate pain working for a bad manager than next to a bad engineer...
presscast 8y ago
>It has always been laughed off as me being cute. Perhaps people are worried you'll automate them straight to a layoff?
tummybug 8y ago
I have also asked this, I can't understand why my managers always think its a joke idea.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  It's because they don't want you to do their job. Job protectivism (?) is a serious thing.
  - turnitoff 8y ago
    No. By the time you get hired and you are appointed a set of things to automate, it's usually followed by a long line of deliberation and resource management and prioritizing that's determined on the higher up. There is a thing called "process debt", in the same way as technical debt, that some things are done manually. This can be mundane routine work, that might be up to 80% easy to automate, but allows for oversight and flexibility and often works with systems that are not trivial to work with. Other times the manual process is just cheaper to maintain than it is to invest in a "good enough" automation. You can also follow this by looking at the practice of offshoring and the amount of automation invested into offshored service centers (who benefit most from these solutions via specialization and scaling). So even if the company hires a goddamn genius, if you want to automate stuff without breaking existing flows, you need quite a few months of understanding of the environment and the real needs of the process (business wise as well), etc. And that's why managers think it's a joke idea. (And it also comes off as extremely arrogant, because it's essentially calling your coworkers stupid by saying "I'll see something that you haven't noticed in years!")
    - nitrogen 8y ago
      > saying "I'll see something that you haven't noticed in years!" It's also arrogant to assume that a fresh perspective will never yield fresh results. I'm starting to think that the only way to work around the problem (if you actually are good at seeing things that the rest of the organization has blind spots for) is to become a consultant who is expected to suggest changes. Otherwise you will be stuck fighting against primate hierarchy instincts.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
That's because you're asking "Put me in charge and I'll tell you what needs fixing", instead of telling them what needs fixing first. I'd see if you can start with a thing or two, making sure to organize a presentation or something to present your work and the direct benefits from it - making sure to invite the managers' manager if possible. Alternatively, send an email to important people about the success. Show, don't tell.
- sambe 8y ago
  I don't think that's what is being suggested. They aren't asking to be in charge, they are asking to experience the (potentially automatable) problems first. The leaders do not tend to be associated with the front lines.
  - endymi0n 8y ago
    And yet that‘s exactly how to create the most value. I believe deeply in the concept of „transferring pain“, as it‘s usually an order of magnitude easier to teach a good developer some domain knowledge than teaching a domain worker thinking in automation. If I want something looking repetitive working smooth, I‘ll let my best devs do the work themselves for a week and dig their way out of it. Heck, that‘s exactly how I got serious about coding in the first place. The guy in the post automated his job, decided not to tell anyone and played games all day. I told my employer about my automation back then and they were like - „so you wanna quit now or join Engineering?“ Whatever floats your boat — I‘m CTO by now.
  - datavirtue 8y ago
    It is perceived as "let me show everyone what you have been missing." They are not going to allow that, just as a smart person is not going to tell everyone that they automated thier job if they don't think the environment is going to promote them for it.
intellix 8y ago
or just do it?
myWindoonn 8y ago
You're probably coming off as an arrogant prick. Try something like "In order to write better tools and automation, I need to empathize with the people using the tools and experiencing day-to-day pain. Can we find somebody who is willing to let me watch over their shoulder for a few minutes on one day?" Note the implicit bargaining for small amounts of time and only small intrusion, as well as the understanding that you are not a decider, but an observer; not an automator, but a pain-reliever.
- klibertp 8y ago
  Good advice, but the first line is completely unneeded. I don't think that assuming someone's manner of speaking to be off-putting based on a short, evidently intended as a summary, comment on a forum is a polite thing to do. Using this kind of thinking suggests that you're no less of a prick than the GP, which is obviously wrong... right?
  - myWindoonn 8y ago
    I am, in fact, more of a prick than GP. There is a strange desire on this site to assume good faith. I have no idea where that comes from; nearly everybody is clearly posting with a heavy, thick personal bias. I suspect that folks only feel that they are arguing in good faith, and that their feelings blind them to their biases.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - Skrillex 8y ago
      >I have no idea where that comes from Here, I will show you. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - peteforde 8y ago
      Even if being civil and assuming good faith wasn't baked into the ethos of HN (and YC in general), I'm genuinely curious as to why you'd personally default to assuming the worst in people. As far as strategies go, is it working for you? I am not being glib or sarcastic. I ask because I directly attribute almost every bit of "luck" I've experienced to people acting in good faith. It's literally been the most important decision I've ever made and stuck with. Personally, I have no energy for discussions where people assume the worst by default. That falls way too close to "someone is wrong on the internet" for me. It's easy to find people to disagree with, and difficult to find smart people that can illuminate why you might be holding onto incorrect assumptions.
emodendroket 8y ago
The first programming job I had I was actually promoted from being a "front-line" worker answering calls and processing forms all day, and I was pretty much able to write the software with no requirements explanation at all. So there is some value there.
noir_lord 8y ago
Our most recent stocktake I took the day off from programming, grabbed a handheld and went around doing the same job as anyone else doing stocktake, I have about half a dozen small-medium sized changes I can make that will vastly reduce time for next stock take. I've also spent time in our sandblast units and our loading docks and sales team. How can I architect and build good software if I don't have a good understanding of the domain and you can only get that by immersing yourself in it head first. I'm lucky in that my boss cottoned onto the fact we get better software when I see the problem in the raw and not just his interpretation of the problem. Wouldn't work for everyone, we are a small production/import company so it's possible for me to get the basics of each users role (and I can physically go ask them if need be) but it's a huge win imo if it's possible.
- protonfish 8y ago
  Trying to get access to the people who actually do the jobs that can be automated is almost always a struggle. It seems weird and counter-intuitive to me so I have never figured out what to say to get this critical resource. Typically you have to gather user data through a telephone game-like chain of middle managers. And that doesn't really work,
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    In my case it's because my boss is smart and because I have a tendency of operating on a 'better to seek forgiveness than ask permission' model. I have a huge amount of latitude in how I spend my time so if boss sees me in the loading dock scanning deliveries he assumes that I'm doing it for a good reason. One of many reasons you'd need a crowbar and a tub of grease to get me to leave, I've had offers with 20% better compensation or more including some developer management roles but never even considered them, I'm well paid for a developer relative to the local market, I work a 37.5hr week, week in/week out and my work is both appreciated and has a measurable impact, it's close to programmer heaven (except for the mess I inherited but that's slowly getting sorted). There is more to life than money including actually having time for a life.
  - EADGBE 8y ago
beardbound 8y ago
I work in logistics and our company runs regular tours of our service centers that anybody in engineering can go on and get any questions they want answered. It's pretty great. it takes the tasks off the screen so to speak and puts them in real context.

xorcist 8y ago

It wouldn't surprise me if you found out that some work is useless in the first place. Many people lack the bigger picture of what the purpose of operations really are. That's what easy to miss when thinking in terms of "automation". Automating existing work doesn't move us forward very much. Making the work unnecessary is.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago

If your work is "laughing off" your suggestions and putting you down I'd seriously consider finding a better employer.

collyw 8y ago
Managers always think that they are smarter than coders. Lets face it if they admitted that we could make business decision well there wouldn't be much need for them.
- wartijn_ 8y ago
  Works just as well the other way around. Every time managers are mentioned at HN, some programmer is sure they can do a better job than their/most/all managers.
  - jinfiesto 8y ago
    That's because programmers can do management. It's not unusual to see engineers get tracked into management. I have certainly never seen it go the other way (partially because managers usually make more than engineers I'm sure.)
    - rplst8 8y ago
      To add to that, you can't be a human being on this planet without some sort of management skills.
    - softawre 8y ago
      Yeah, and most of the time (at least at places I've worked) the managers are former coders. So arguing that all managers are stupid just seems silly to me. Also, yes - anybody can do management, and anybody can do coding. Learning to do either effectively is a skill.
- majormajor 8y ago
  > Lets face it if they admitted that we could make business decision well there wouldn't be much need for them. Are you just making these decisions off the top of your head? Or are you talking to people, having research done, soliciting feedback, etc? In the latter case, congrats, now you're a manager! :p (If you're at a small company, you've probably still got enough time to do some hands-on work too...) IME bad technical managers don't occur at any higher frequency than bad engineers; I haven't worked in other industries to know what it looks like there. But you get a lot more immediate pain working for a bad manager than next to a bad engineer...

presscast 8y ago

>It has always been laughed off as me being cute. Perhaps people are worried you'll automate them straight to a layoff?

tummybug 8y ago

I have also asked this, I can't understand why my managers always think its a joke idea.

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
It's because they don't want you to do their job. Job protectivism (?) is a serious thing.
- turnitoff 8y ago
  No. By the time you get hired and you are appointed a set of things to automate, it's usually followed by a long line of deliberation and resource management and prioritizing that's determined on the higher up. There is a thing called "process debt", in the same way as technical debt, that some things are done manually. This can be mundane routine work, that might be up to 80% easy to automate, but allows for oversight and flexibility and often works with systems that are not trivial to work with. Other times the manual process is just cheaper to maintain than it is to invest in a "good enough" automation. You can also follow this by looking at the practice of offshoring and the amount of automation invested into offshored service centers (who benefit most from these solutions via specialization and scaling). So even if the company hires a goddamn genius, if you want to automate stuff without breaking existing flows, you need quite a few months of understanding of the environment and the real needs of the process (business wise as well), etc. And that's why managers think it's a joke idea. (And it also comes off as extremely arrogant, because it's essentially calling your coworkers stupid by saying "I'll see something that you haven't noticed in years!")
  - nitrogen 8y ago
    > saying "I'll see something that you haven't noticed in years!" It's also arrogant to assume that a fresh perspective will never yield fresh results. I'm starting to think that the only way to work around the problem (if you actually are good at seeing things that the rest of the organization has blind spots for) is to become a consultant who is expected to suggest changes. Otherwise you will be stuck fighting against primate hierarchy instincts.

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

That's because you're asking "Put me in charge and I'll tell you what needs fixing", instead of telling them what needs fixing first. I'd see if you can start with a thing or two, making sure to organize a presentation or something to present your work and the direct benefits from it - making sure to invite the managers' manager if possible. Alternatively, send an email to important people about the success. Show, don't tell.

sambe 8y ago
I don't think that's what is being suggested. They aren't asking to be in charge, they are asking to experience the (potentially automatable) problems first. The leaders do not tend to be associated with the front lines.
- endymi0n 8y ago
  And yet that‘s exactly how to create the most value. I believe deeply in the concept of „transferring pain“, as it‘s usually an order of magnitude easier to teach a good developer some domain knowledge than teaching a domain worker thinking in automation. If I want something looking repetitive working smooth, I‘ll let my best devs do the work themselves for a week and dig their way out of it. Heck, that‘s exactly how I got serious about coding in the first place. The guy in the post automated his job, decided not to tell anyone and played games all day. I told my employer about my automation back then and they were like - „so you wanna quit now or join Engineering?“ Whatever floats your boat — I‘m CTO by now.
- datavirtue 8y ago
  It is perceived as "let me show everyone what you have been missing." They are not going to allow that, just as a smart person is not going to tell everyone that they automated thier job if they don't think the environment is going to promote them for it.

intellix 8y ago

or just do it?

myWindoonn 8y ago

You're probably coming off as an arrogant prick. Try something like "In order to write better tools and automation, I need to empathize with the people using the tools and experiencing day-to-day pain. Can we find somebody who is willing to let me watch over their shoulder for a few minutes on one day?" Note the implicit bargaining for small amounts of time and only small intrusion, as well as the understanding that you are not a decider, but an observer; not an automator, but a pain-reliever.

klibertp 8y ago
Good advice, but the first line is completely unneeded. I don't think that assuming someone's manner of speaking to be off-putting based on a short, evidently intended as a summary, comment on a forum is a polite thing to do. Using this kind of thinking suggests that you're no less of a prick than the GP, which is obviously wrong... right?
- myWindoonn 8y ago
  I am, in fact, more of a prick than GP. There is a strange desire on this site to assume good faith. I have no idea where that comes from; nearly everybody is clearly posting with a heavy, thick personal bias. I suspect that folks only feel that they are arguing in good faith, and that their feelings blind them to their biases.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Skrillex 8y ago
    >I have no idea where that comes from Here, I will show you. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - peteforde 8y ago
    Even if being civil and assuming good faith wasn't baked into the ethos of HN (and YC in general), I'm genuinely curious as to why you'd personally default to assuming the worst in people. As far as strategies go, is it working for you? I am not being glib or sarcastic. I ask because I directly attribute almost every bit of "luck" I've experienced to people acting in good faith. It's literally been the most important decision I've ever made and stuck with. Personally, I have no energy for discussions where people assume the worst by default. That falls way too close to "someone is wrong on the internet" for me. It's easy to find people to disagree with, and difficult to find smart people that can illuminate why you might be holding onto incorrect assumptions.

emodendroket 8y ago

The first programming job I had I was actually promoted from being a "front-line" worker answering calls and processing forms all day, and I was pretty much able to write the software with no requirements explanation at all. So there is some value there.

noir_lord 8y ago

Our most recent stocktake I took the day off from programming, grabbed a handheld and went around doing the same job as anyone else doing stocktake, I have about half a dozen small-medium sized changes I can make that will vastly reduce time for next stock take. I've also spent time in our sandblast units and our loading docks and sales team. How can I architect and build good software if I don't have a good understanding of the domain and you can only get that by immersing yourself in it head first. I'm lucky in that my boss cottoned onto the fact we get better software when I see the problem in the raw and not just his interpretation of the problem. Wouldn't work for everyone, we are a small production/import company so it's possible for me to get the basics of each users role (and I can physically go ask them if need be) but it's a huge win imo if it's possible.

protonfish 8y ago
Trying to get access to the people who actually do the jobs that can be automated is almost always a struggle. It seems weird and counter-intuitive to me so I have never figured out what to say to get this critical resource. Typically you have to gather user data through a telephone game-like chain of middle managers. And that doesn't really work,
- noir_lord 8y ago
  In my case it's because my boss is smart and because I have a tendency of operating on a 'better to seek forgiveness than ask permission' model. I have a huge amount of latitude in how I spend my time so if boss sees me in the loading dock scanning deliveries he assumes that I'm doing it for a good reason. One of many reasons you'd need a crowbar and a tub of grease to get me to leave, I've had offers with 20% better compensation or more including some developer management roles but never even considered them, I'm well paid for a developer relative to the local market, I work a 37.5hr week, week in/week out and my work is both appreciated and has a measurable impact, it's close to programmer heaven (except for the mess I inherited but that's slowly getting sorted). There is more to life than money including actually having time for a life.
- EADGBE 8y ago

beardbound 8y ago

I work in logistics and our company runs regular tours of our service centers that anybody in engineering can go on and get any questions they want answered. It's pretty great. it takes the tasks off the screen so to speak and puts them in real context.