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> ...to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years missed completely. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're doing something very wrong if you've lost track

> ...to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years missed completely. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're doing something very wrong if you've lost track of $100,000s of payments.

prawn 8y ago
Keep in mind that it's over 20 years. Happens in dribs and drabs like this: get really busy, forget to invoice project for a while, realise you're months behind and so put off invoicing because clients won't like receiving them late, later it gets, more awkward and easier to avoid it gets. Or the business is sold or collapses. Or you don't chase up unpaid invoices for so long it's unlikely you can convince them to pay. Every client harasses you to get the work done. Very few harass you about the invoices. You start invoicing and then the calls come in or urgent emails. You plan to do it from home at night but then life/kids happen and you're exhausted. I forgot to invoice one maintenance client for a year and threw away five figures. Would've been handy money that year. In the early years, aggregating staff time sheets was manual and easy to put off. We ended up building https://usepunch.com https://usepunch.com to handle that which is a massive help. In web development and with 100+ clients, it can be quite difficult to track things like hosting and domains when they're spread across multiple providers, renewing at different times of the year, etc. We ended up building an internal web-app that interfaces with Xero to help manage this, but this was 18+ years in... And yeah, I can appreciate I've done something very wrong. I've found that all too easy when spread so thin.
- kowdermeister 8y ago
  That administration mess is exactly why I stopped freelancing.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    I had similar problems, but on a much smaller scale. I thought I had a good relationship with one client and that invoices were being paid on time, but then I found that around £10k had been overlooked by AP over the course of a few years. After that I phoned after every invoice - which was a pain in the ass for me and for AP, but the money (mostly) arrived on time. It's really, really easy to miss how important admin and cashflow are. They're boring AF, but also too important to ignore. Even worse is the realisation that sometimes you are going to be paid late, sometimes you are going to be offered partial payment, and sometimes you may never be paid at all - and these are all absolutely normal in business and you should expect them and have contingencies for them. As a rule, any freelance work where you rely on timely payment from a single client to cover your outgoings is incredibly risky and dangerous and can easily become very stressful - because you are literally flirting with financial death.
  - pc86 8y ago
    It's not a mess unless you have some weird hangup about billing people and agreed-upon rate for an agreed-upon service. I freelanced full-time for 3-4 years, at one point with dozens of active clients, and never missed a billable hour. It's not difficult if you have a system to track and bill. Yeah it takes time, and it's a grind, and there are times you'd rather just not do it, but to imply that freelancing makes it easy to miss hundreds of thousands of dollars in billables, which is a non-trivial percentage of most folks lifetime income, does not jive with my experience in the slightest.
    - kowdermeister 8y ago
      It's not just about missing invoices. Freelancing didn't really satisfy me to be a one man business army. Having dozens of active clients sounds like a horror movie to me. I also worried much more as a freelancer than as an employee. It's great that you could do it.
    - prawn 8y ago
      You did 3-4 years with dozens. I am at 20 years and more complexity. For a number of years, I managed staff and interns - just keeping interns busy chews up a lot of time. I had a co-founder to start with, and was then solo running it from then. Once you have staff but not the scale to get help managing that, it gets seriously difficult. When I started, things like Toggl didn't really exist. I used to print out and manually sum hours from staff per client/project and per month. And then create dozens of invoices each month manually in MYOB, an awful and miserable interface. It was a huge timesink. I couldn't outsource it because I was the only one with true knowledge of each relationship - what to bill in what way, which clients were sensitive, etc. I'm not saying it's impossible to do it OK, I'm saying it's easy to get it wrong and fall behind. I mentioned the idea of an opinionated business framework to a friend (freelancing very occasionally 1-2 years) and they said "Oh YES, absolutely." And that's for someone who'd send 2-3 invoices a month, not 50+.
- philfrasty 8y ago
  "it's unlikely you can convince them to pay" why not simply use some factoring service that charges you some minor % for never caring about missed payments again? There are multiple out there (I am EU based) that have APIs, a decent interface, etc.

> ...to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years missed completely. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're doing something very wrong if you've lost track of $100,000s of payments.

prawn 8y ago

Keep in mind that it's over 20 years. Happens in dribs and drabs like this: get really busy, forget to invoice project for a while, realise you're months behind and so put off invoicing because clients won't like receiving them late, later it gets, more awkward and easier to avoid it gets. Or the business is sold or collapses. Or you don't chase up unpaid invoices for so long it's unlikely you can convince them to pay. Every client harasses you to get the work done. Very few harass you about the invoices. You start invoicing and then the calls come in or urgent emails. You plan to do it from home at night but then life/kids happen and you're exhausted. I forgot to invoice one maintenance client for a year and threw away five figures. Would've been handy money that year. In the early years, aggregating staff time sheets was manual and easy to put off. We ended up building https://usepunch.com https://usepunch.com to handle that which is a massive help. In web development and with 100+ clients, it can be quite difficult to track things like hosting and domains when they're spread across multiple providers, renewing at different times of the year, etc. We ended up building an internal web-app that interfaces with Xero to help manage this, but this was 18+ years in... And yeah, I can appreciate I've done something very wrong. I've found that all too easy when spread so thin.

kowdermeister 8y ago
That administration mess is exactly why I stopped freelancing.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  I had similar problems, but on a much smaller scale. I thought I had a good relationship with one client and that invoices were being paid on time, but then I found that around £10k had been overlooked by AP over the course of a few years. After that I phoned after every invoice - which was a pain in the ass for me and for AP, but the money (mostly) arrived on time. It's really, really easy to miss how important admin and cashflow are. They're boring AF, but also too important to ignore. Even worse is the realisation that sometimes you are going to be paid late, sometimes you are going to be offered partial payment, and sometimes you may never be paid at all - and these are all absolutely normal in business and you should expect them and have contingencies for them. As a rule, any freelance work where you rely on timely payment from a single client to cover your outgoings is incredibly risky and dangerous and can easily become very stressful - because you are literally flirting with financial death.
- pc86 8y ago
  It's not a mess unless you have some weird hangup about billing people and agreed-upon rate for an agreed-upon service. I freelanced full-time for 3-4 years, at one point with dozens of active clients, and never missed a billable hour. It's not difficult if you have a system to track and bill. Yeah it takes time, and it's a grind, and there are times you'd rather just not do it, but to imply that freelancing makes it easy to miss hundreds of thousands of dollars in billables, which is a non-trivial percentage of most folks lifetime income, does not jive with my experience in the slightest.
  - kowdermeister 8y ago
    It's not just about missing invoices. Freelancing didn't really satisfy me to be a one man business army. Having dozens of active clients sounds like a horror movie to me. I also worried much more as a freelancer than as an employee. It's great that you could do it.
  - prawn 8y ago
    You did 3-4 years with dozens. I am at 20 years and more complexity. For a number of years, I managed staff and interns - just keeping interns busy chews up a lot of time. I had a co-founder to start with, and was then solo running it from then. Once you have staff but not the scale to get help managing that, it gets seriously difficult. When I started, things like Toggl didn't really exist. I used to print out and manually sum hours from staff per client/project and per month. And then create dozens of invoices each month manually in MYOB, an awful and miserable interface. It was a huge timesink. I couldn't outsource it because I was the only one with true knowledge of each relationship - what to bill in what way, which clients were sensitive, etc. I'm not saying it's impossible to do it OK, I'm saying it's easy to get it wrong and fall behind. I mentioned the idea of an opinionated business framework to a friend (freelancing very occasionally 1-2 years) and they said "Oh YES, absolutely." And that's for someone who'd send 2-3 invoices a month, not 50+.
philfrasty 8y ago
"it's unlikely you can convince them to pay" why not simply use some factoring service that charges you some minor % for never caring about missed payments again? There are multiple out there (I am EU based) that have APIs, a decent interface, etc.