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Are you guys reading the same list as me? How would you categorize the following as a "rich white guy problem"? "Air conditioning – As more people in hot clim

Are you guys reading the same list as me? How would you categorize the following as a "rich white guy problem"? "Air conditioning – As more people in hot climates enter the middle class, and as climate change accelerates, the demand for air conditioning will explode. What innovation is possible here?"

whamlastxmas 8y ago
To be devil's advocate: The worst possible outcome of using more air conditioning is more pollution. Pollution (on a global scale) and the associated potential climate change are considered pretty first-world (rich white dude) problems. Pollution on a local scale is definitely more legitimate, but that's overwhelmingly due to combustion engines (cars) and not power generation, which doesn't typically happen in city centers.
- NoIWont 8y ago
  Hmmm, Air Conditioners are heat pumps as are fridges. Pumping heat rather than generating it comes in at roughly 1/4 the energy budget. An innovative "Air Conditioner" that could store the usually dumped heat for later use (Say in preheating water for a hot tap to lower costs of heating) would probably be extremely popular if it was a decent product otherwise (Cheap, durable, easy to install). Effectively what is needed is a set of technologies that allow heat to be moved around and stored as easily as electricity and for a lower cost than generation. If we had those then you'd have the best of both worlds, technologies that reduce climate change as well as allowing the non-first world to make life more comfortable in a warming world.
  - xrd 8y ago
    Burning Man attendees, and others before them, have made some innovative ac units called swamp coolers.
  - deftnerd 8y ago
    I remember reading recently about heat sinks for AC units that expel waste heat in as specific infrared band that sees the atmosphere as entirely transparent. In effect, it allows you to 'beam' the waste heat directly to space. Similar to an AC unit, I would love to see two-part refrigerators. It always seemed dumb to me to cool the interior of your refrigerator by dumping heat into your home, which your AC has to then extract and dump outside. A refrigerator that had an external heat exchanger that could be placed outside, or shared with the AC heat exchanger, would be pretty spectacular.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > It always seemed dumb to me to cool the interior of your refrigerator by dumping heat into your home, which your AC has to then extract and dump outside. It seems dumb in California, but in my much of the country (and much of the inhabited world, though there's a lot where this isn't true, too), you need heating of living space more than cooling, so pumping heat out of a fridge into the living space is a double win most of the year, and added complexity to avoid it is pure waste.
    - mmt 8y ago
      > seemed dumb to me to cool the interior of your refrigerator by dumping heat into your home, which your AC has to then extract and dump outside. This doesn't strike me as dumb at all, unless the refrigerator's heat pump is more efficient [1] than the AC. Although it may be, it's not a foregone conclusion, and it stands to reason that a refrigerator would be designed to function better when pumping [2] heat into room temperatures than outdoor temperatures (as opposed to an AC). Regardless, all heat pumps have to work harder (use more energy and/or run longer) when the temperature differential on either side is worse. You wouldn't be getting something for nothing by moving a fridge's hot side to a hotter outdoor location. [1] Overall, including maintenance/replacement cost due to longer run-time [2] or dumping, though "dump" suggest something more passive than what I believe is going on
- paulirwin 8y ago
  It's unclear from your comment if you were actually making this point or not, but climate change is certainly not primarily a "first-world" problem. The people that will be affected most by climate change are in developing countries. Just one example source, this is pretty much consensus: http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2014/03/03/climate-change-affects-poorest-developing-countries http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2014/03/03/climate-...
wp381640 8y ago
Air conditioning is an energy problem. There is no magic bullet to cooling 15+ cubic meters of air from 30+ degrees to 23 degrees
- mdorazio 8y ago
  No one is asking for a magic bullet. People are asking for something better than the expensive, marginally efficient, and failure-prone compressor-based AC units that dominate the market now. There are alternatives out there that have yet to reach market-ready status, but could have a big impact - things like magnetocaloric cooling (BASF has a prototype [1]) and thermoacoustic heat engines [2], both of which have higher energy efficiency and potentially longer service life than compressor-based units. [1] https://www.basf.com/en/company/news-and-media/magazine/resources-environment-and-climate/magnetic-cooling.html https://www.basf.com/en/company/news-and-media/magazine/reso... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoacoustic_heat_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoacoustic_heat_engine

whamlastxmas 8y ago

To be devil's advocate: The worst possible outcome of using more air conditioning is more pollution. Pollution (on a global scale) and the associated potential climate change are considered pretty first-world (rich white dude) problems. Pollution on a local scale is definitely more legitimate, but that's overwhelmingly due to combustion engines (cars) and not power generation, which doesn't typically happen in city centers.

NoIWont 8y ago
Hmmm, Air Conditioners are heat pumps as are fridges. Pumping heat rather than generating it comes in at roughly 1/4 the energy budget. An innovative "Air Conditioner" that could store the usually dumped heat for later use (Say in preheating water for a hot tap to lower costs of heating) would probably be extremely popular if it was a decent product otherwise (Cheap, durable, easy to install). Effectively what is needed is a set of technologies that allow heat to be moved around and stored as easily as electricity and for a lower cost than generation. If we had those then you'd have the best of both worlds, technologies that reduce climate change as well as allowing the non-first world to make life more comfortable in a warming world.
- xrd 8y ago
  Burning Man attendees, and others before them, have made some innovative ac units called swamp coolers.
- deftnerd 8y ago
  I remember reading recently about heat sinks for AC units that expel waste heat in as specific infrared band that sees the atmosphere as entirely transparent. In effect, it allows you to 'beam' the waste heat directly to space. Similar to an AC unit, I would love to see two-part refrigerators. It always seemed dumb to me to cool the interior of your refrigerator by dumping heat into your home, which your AC has to then extract and dump outside. A refrigerator that had an external heat exchanger that could be placed outside, or shared with the AC heat exchanger, would be pretty spectacular.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > It always seemed dumb to me to cool the interior of your refrigerator by dumping heat into your home, which your AC has to then extract and dump outside. It seems dumb in California, but in my much of the country (and much of the inhabited world, though there's a lot where this isn't true, too), you need heating of living space more than cooling, so pumping heat out of a fridge into the living space is a double win most of the year, and added complexity to avoid it is pure waste.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > seemed dumb to me to cool the interior of your refrigerator by dumping heat into your home, which your AC has to then extract and dump outside. This doesn't strike me as dumb at all, unless the refrigerator's heat pump is more efficient [1] than the AC. Although it may be, it's not a foregone conclusion, and it stands to reason that a refrigerator would be designed to function better when pumping [2] heat into room temperatures than outdoor temperatures (as opposed to an AC). Regardless, all heat pumps have to work harder (use more energy and/or run longer) when the temperature differential on either side is worse. You wouldn't be getting something for nothing by moving a fridge's hot side to a hotter outdoor location. [1] Overall, including maintenance/replacement cost due to longer run-time [2] or dumping, though "dump" suggest something more passive than what I believe is going on
paulirwin 8y ago
It's unclear from your comment if you were actually making this point or not, but climate change is certainly not primarily a "first-world" problem. The people that will be affected most by climate change are in developing countries. Just one example source, this is pretty much consensus: http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2014/03/03/climate-change-affects-poorest-developing-countries http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2014/03/03/climate-...

wp381640 8y ago

Air conditioning is an energy problem. There is no magic bullet to cooling 15+ cubic meters of air from 30+ degrees to 23 degrees

mdorazio 8y ago
No one is asking for a magic bullet. People are asking for something better than the expensive, marginally efficient, and failure-prone compressor-based AC units that dominate the market now. There are alternatives out there that have yet to reach market-ready status, but could have a big impact - things like magnetocaloric cooling (BASF has a prototype [1]) and thermoacoustic heat engines [2], both of which have higher energy efficiency and potentially longer service life than compressor-based units. [1] https://www.basf.com/en/company/news-and-media/magazine/resources-environment-and-climate/magnetic-cooling.html https://www.basf.com/en/company/news-and-media/magazine/reso... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoacoustic_heat_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoacoustic_heat_engine