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I just have so many problems working with the former C programmers on my team as a Python dev. They're constantly worried about memory management, they're not

I just have so many problems working with the former C programmers on my team as a Python dev. They're constantly worried about memory management, they're not very concerned about architecture and don't make full use of the Python language, they're of the "if it works, ship it" mentality, and they're constantly writing code that violates my tastes. I can write a C program, but I am not in any way a C ninja. I sometimes wonder if having to write C to pay for the food on your table teaches you bad habits when trying to bring that experience up a layer (or three). Maybe not, I don't know. Am I alone in this thinking?

sys_64738 8y ago
Python has scalability issues which are solved by calling into C libraries. What does that tell you about whom should be listening to who? There are many reasons C programmers are experts in their craft while python programmers are 10 a penny.
- diminoten 8y ago
  My point was that C programmers aren't experts at their craft, just experts at C, and all the habits that were possibly good in C carry over, making them less than good at Python. Also, I think your comment is a great example of the mentality that C programmers I've worked with brought to the table (partially because it's true for C but untrue for other language, particularly python); that if you can write code that runs, you are "good", that "runnable code that solves the problem" is the end goal. Finally, there are most certainly not a glut of python developers. Certainly many people who write python scripts, but far fewer people who are python developers. There's a difference, and I get the sense that's lost on some C programmers.
  - sys_64738 8y ago
    C is their craft and they're experts so what's not to like? I'm not sure what this 'good enough' angle is and why you think it's specific to C. It's an issue to other language more than C as those other languages are often used by shops without proper software engineering practices in place. All the places I've worked which use C enforce those SW practices but it's not clear to me that the same could be said for other languages. If anything, one of python's downfalls is its desire to do too much complexity in lambda or list comprehension statements. Those areas that cause you to stop and have to think about the code are weaknesses of python but every novice tries to do it by copying and pasting from stackoverflow. So I think you've got the position flipped, IMO.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      You keep talking about Python's problems, and I'm trying to talk about the habits I've noticed C programmers form and are rewarded for, but are bad for Python development. There are literally no habits in your mind that could be good in C but bad in Python?
      - sys_64738 8y ago
        As I am a veteran C programmer with decades of experience with several years of straight python now, what I see is a people who think they understand how to write complex software but don't grasp the fundamentals. This isn't explicitly a C V Python programmer discussion so much as exposing that Python insulates you from the peculiarities of things like debugging complex problems, writing robust code, good software practices, understanding libraries, scalability, parallel programming. The list is endless for the weaknesses of python and the developer who is comfortable there, which is fine given Python is a scripting language at heart.
        diminoten 8y ago
        > which is fine given Python is a scripting language at heart This is exactly the problem, and it's actually kind of rare to get an example of what you're talking about to show up in the very comments you're using to explain the problem! Very validating, that is. For the other folks reading this, imagine trying to work with someone who thinks these things. Imagine how unwilling to change their bad habits they'll be, since they think that because they're good at C means they're good at writing software. Any trouble they run into is the language's fault, not theirs!
        sys_64738 8y ago
        Are you claiming Python _isn't_ a scripting language? If it isn't then what the heck is it?!? What I find generally from Python developers who have lived an breathed the language for many years is that they accept there are fundamental failings and acknowledge the better means to workaround those. In reading back through your comments, it seems you are blinkered by those with the benefit of working in other languages. In particular, you seem to have hang ups about C which are not clear why. Perhaps you'd care to explain those.

sys_64738 8y ago

Python has scalability issues which are solved by calling into C libraries. What does that tell you about whom should be listening to who? There are many reasons C programmers are experts in their craft while python programmers are 10 a penny.

diminoten 8y ago
My point was that C programmers aren't experts at their craft, just experts at C, and all the habits that were possibly good in C carry over, making them less than good at Python. Also, I think your comment is a great example of the mentality that C programmers I've worked with brought to the table (partially because it's true for C but untrue for other language, particularly python); that if you can write code that runs, you are "good", that "runnable code that solves the problem" is the end goal. Finally, there are most certainly not a glut of python developers. Certainly many people who write python scripts, but far fewer people who are python developers. There's a difference, and I get the sense that's lost on some C programmers.
- sys_64738 8y ago
  C is their craft and they're experts so what's not to like? I'm not sure what this 'good enough' angle is and why you think it's specific to C. It's an issue to other language more than C as those other languages are often used by shops without proper software engineering practices in place. All the places I've worked which use C enforce those SW practices but it's not clear to me that the same could be said for other languages. If anything, one of python's downfalls is its desire to do too much complexity in lambda or list comprehension statements. Those areas that cause you to stop and have to think about the code are weaknesses of python but every novice tries to do it by copying and pasting from stackoverflow. So I think you've got the position flipped, IMO.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    You keep talking about Python's problems, and I'm trying to talk about the habits I've noticed C programmers form and are rewarded for, but are bad for Python development. There are literally no habits in your mind that could be good in C but bad in Python?
    - sys_64738 8y ago
      As I am a veteran C programmer with decades of experience with several years of straight python now, what I see is a people who think they understand how to write complex software but don't grasp the fundamentals. This isn't explicitly a C V Python programmer discussion so much as exposing that Python insulates you from the peculiarities of things like debugging complex problems, writing robust code, good software practices, understanding libraries, scalability, parallel programming. The list is endless for the weaknesses of python and the developer who is comfortable there, which is fine given Python is a scripting language at heart.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        > which is fine given Python is a scripting language at heart This is exactly the problem, and it's actually kind of rare to get an example of what you're talking about to show up in the very comments you're using to explain the problem! Very validating, that is. For the other folks reading this, imagine trying to work with someone who thinks these things. Imagine how unwilling to change their bad habits they'll be, since they think that because they're good at C means they're good at writing software. Any trouble they run into is the language's fault, not theirs!
        sys_64738 8y ago
        Are you claiming Python _isn't_ a scripting language? If it isn't then what the heck is it?!? What I find generally from Python developers who have lived an breathed the language for many years is that they accept there are fundamental failings and acknowledge the better means to workaround those. In reading back through your comments, it seems you are blinkered by those with the benefit of working in other languages. In particular, you seem to have hang ups about C which are not clear why. Perhaps you'd care to explain those.