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Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical? This is exactly what everyone wanted Amazon to do. Maybe it's time to suck it up and give praise where prai

by pkulak 8y ago

Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical? This is exactly what everyone wanted Amazon to do. Maybe it's time to suck it up and give praise where praise is due? There are also benefits to paying more salary than your competitors (no hiring shortages, best employees, low turnover, etc), so I'm not going to blindly accept that it's now in Amazon's interest to drag the rest of the industry along with them. But even if I did, there's absolutely no guarantee that this kind of lobbying would ever work. And if it did, it could be decades from now, $0.50, or both. In the meantime, Amazon has already put their money where their lobby is.

wjnc 8y ago
Well in this respect: Amazon chooses to link the two discussions themselves. They could have easily made their communication less open to an easy attack by pledging $15 an hour while lobbying silently, or at least communicating that on another moment. They could have noble intentions with both moves. I'd even expect them to have noble intentions since $15 seems an unreasonable large increase from $7.25. Why link to two discussions? It's an error of their communication department IMHO. You've got to think as the receiving party. The receiving parties of both messages are separate: communicate them separately.
- YorkianTones 8y ago
  While it would be in Amazon's interest to get the federal minimum wage increased after setting their internal minimum wage at $15/hr, why is this negative? Aligning business interests with the public good is brilliant IMO and I strongly feel a $15 minimum wage, plus regular increases, is for the public good. Kudos to Amazon for making the wage increase and aligning their business interests and lobbying efforts to a federal wage increase.
- IgorPartola 8y ago
  Wait, why is it bad that Amazon is lobbying for this? Would you say it was bad if, say, ACLU was lobbying for a $15 minimum wage? My guess is that from Amazon's point of view, they are winning political points by not just raising their own minimum wage to $15, they are also using their standing in the industry to increase quality of life for non-Amazon minimum wage workers. If they succeed, I am happy to grant them the credit they are due. If a big corporation doing the right thing results in more profits for them, I don't see that as grounds for criticism. Did we criticize Starbucks when they offered a competitive wage and free college education? Or any of the other companies that chose to pay above the minimum?
  - jpmoyn 8y ago
    It isn't bad that they are doing it, they are just pointing out the probable motivation.
  - fendy3002 8y ago
    My guess is because how big advantage amazon has compared to smaller companies. They have good tax cut. Taking that aside, they also applied tight working time and high kpi, which can't be applied by smaller companies. And it gets better with PR stunt like this. And CMIIW, I think increased minimum wage will increase goods price and higher skilled worker's wage overall, making those changes useless again. It's just my 2 cents, with source limited from following recent news.
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    By lobbying for the $15 minimum wage they are working to make sure that their competitors don’t retain any competitive advantage on wages. So now the brick and mortar shop that is barely in business because of competition with Amazon is going to get hit with a big bump in wage costs. They either will raise prices, or go out of business, both scenarios benefit Amazon.
    - jdmichal 8y ago
      That's a nice story, but it's just that. Alternatively, all the minimum wage workers will have more expendable income. Some of that may be spent at those brick-and-mortar shops, and will offset the additional costs. Remember that the velocity of money makes it a non-zero-sum game. EDIT: Ends up that Wikipedia covers this nicely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States#Economic_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta... "The interconnection of price levels, central bank policy, wage agreements, and total aggregate demand creates a situation in which conclusions drawn from macroeconomic analysis are highly influenced by the underlying assumptions of the interpreter." Also has a nice side-bar quote from Henry Ford, who was partially known for higher wages, and which I think addresses the point I was trying to make (emphasis mine): "The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One's own employees ought to be one's own best customers."
L_Rahman 8y ago
When the topic in question is how one of the most powerful companies on Earth chooses to use its power we should strive to always be this cynical. Skepticism of concentrated power is the ur-American political belief. We seem to have forgotten that lately.
- pkulak 8y ago
  If you're willing to shame a company for behavior you don't like, I think you should be prepared to give praise when they do exactly what you just asked for. When you constantly move the goal posts just so that you never have to abandon your righteous anger for even one day, what kind of incentive does that give companies to change their behavior?
  - meko 8y ago
    Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. They only act in the interest of revenue. Sometimes those interests align with the employees, but let's not pretend this isn't self preservation on amazon's behalf.
    - mikybee93 8y ago
      That's silly. You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest. We only do things to make ourselves feel good, or make ourselves look better. I think that companies have many paths towards self preservation, and that choosing the paths that lead to a better world deserve praise regardless of motive.
      - komali2 8y ago
        I disagree there, because all throughout history are examples of genuine heroes who stood to benefit not at all from their actions. Vince Coleman[0] comes to mind. Humans can be motivated by many things, profit and looking good included. I'm vaguely aware of a philosophical branch that postulates that all actions are selfish, but that ain't science and so I disagree. People will sacrifice their pyramid of needs towards s greater good, I've never heard of a company utterly scuttling profits over the greater good though. On that note, in this case Amazon obviously is shedding profit for a greater good here, especially if they actually lobby, so in this case I believe they (particularly the people that made this decision) deserve praise. (0)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Coleman_%28train_dispatcher%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Coleman_%28train_dispatc...?
jpmoyn 8y ago
The person is just pointing out a logical big-business reason behind the decision they are making. It is pretty likely that they did it for PR, and the lobbying will help that as well, even if it doesn't work. No one has to "suck it up and give praise where praise is due".
overthemoon 8y ago
We do not owe Amazon a positive outlook.
mc32 8y ago
You can both be right. It’s great that they made this move after much criticism, prodding and foot dragging, but... this reaction can also be calculated so that not only they have to carry this load alone but spread it to competitors. In other words AMZN is willing to do it, but they don’t want to be the only ones “burdened” unlike Costco who did it out of concern and perhaps principle (and competitive advantage by ensuring a more stable workforce) but less as part of manoeuvering.
- ntsplnkv2 8y ago
  Seems like a ridiculous risk to take given it is reliant on the US government that is unequivocally pro-business right now and will be until at least 2020.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Not so sure about that. Many businesses are upset at the import tariffs complaining it will affect them. We also have many labor unions cautiously optimistic about support ftom the current admin. Let’s also not forget that while Repubs have traditionally been pro business, Dems, since the 80s have also got cozy with business and get humongous donations from corps —something which was not the case pre 1980s.
    - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
      That's true, but with regards to the minimum wage, which is the topic we are on, republicans are typically against raising it. > Let’s also not forget that while Repubs have traditionally been pro business, Dems, since the 80s have also got cozy with business and get humongous donations from corps —something which was not the case pre 1980s. I don't intend to engage on "x is better than y." or whataboutism comparing political parties. It is simply a valid observation that republicans are more likely to be against raising the minimum wage, so it would follow that if Amazon is only doing this in the hopes that the government will raise it anyway and other companies would have to pay more, it would be an absurd risk to take.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
resters 8y ago
I think you are assuming there is a conflict between Amazon's business interest and the interest of employees. Higher compensation is not done out of generosity, nor should it be. If it were it would be charity. Higher compensation is done out of the desire to attract and retain better workers. If Amazon started paying unemployed people or giving them gift cards to buy things on Amazon, then it would be charity.
superflyguy 8y ago
"Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical?" The top comment is the most popular one.
- monktastic1 8y ago
  Right, so put another way: "wow, why is cynicism so popular on HN?"
nindalf 8y ago
> does the top comment always have to be cynical? It's easy to mistake cynicism for wisdom.
dv_dt 8y ago
I think we should praise this move by Amazon, but also realize they're probably the world leader in warehouse robotics. If they raise wages, and push for wage increases now, there is a short term effect of reduced profits for Amazon, but it also puts pressure on raising costs for competitors while Amazon is on a path to being much better insulated from those costs. It also gives them better community relations basis when siting or expanding locations. Is this cynical, or good move on the part of Amazon? A little of both. It is a smart long-term profit move for Amazon. But I would also say that overall would be great to spark a trend where companies compete via both smart capital investments to raise productivity, and being willing the share the benefit of rising productivity to employees as a tool against competitors.
- onemoresoop 8y ago
  Perhaps they raised minimum wages with the future goal to lay off staff that can be "robotized". After that the remaining workers would certainly have a higher load of dealing with the robots and would most likely not be willing to work for less than $15/h. This can also can earn amazon a good guy reputation so that their future move can be justified. I hope i'm wrong but my instinct tells me that Amazon will not loose a cent on this move.
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    Future staff that can be robotized would be laid off no matter what their pay. Or maybe I should say within a wide band of salaries as I doubt that 10-12 vs 15/hr makes much of a difference on that balance. But I don't think all workers would be eliminated within a warehouse, and I can't estimate if the remaining jobs will be higher load or lower load physically.
rodrodrod 8y ago
> Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical? Middlebrow dismissals are a hacker news staple. http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissals-so-tempting/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissal...
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  Do oblique references to middlebrow dismissal count as middlebrow dismissal?
- dang 8y ago
  They're a homo internetus and ultimately a homo sapiens staple. Alas.
Kim_Bruning 8y ago
I -for one- applaud this example of cynical enlightened self interest. Because no matter how cynical or self interested, there's still the enlightened part. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing, fwiw.
zouhair 8y ago
If anything that is not enough cynicism. There is still the matter of work conditions.
jquip 8y ago
Perhaps, if you'd look at it this way: Almost every article posted here speaks for the topic at hand. Many comments provide reasonable counterviews and create a sense of insight and nuance. This creates a sense of a somewhat balanced viewpoint about the topic. It's not that scoffers or only cynics here are upvoted. Sadly, cynicism often does seem to be the main emotion doing the rounds.
C1sc0cat 8y ago
And also it will improve the quality cohort of the workforce they can target.
BurningFrog 8y ago
> This is exactly what everyone wanted Amazon to do You really need to get out of your bubble. A lot of us who understand economics genuinely think minimum wages hurt the poor, and think this can bring a lot of unemployment.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Please do not insinuate that those of us who support higher minimum wages do not understand economics. It's extremely uncivil.
dgzl 8y ago
You're not wrong, not neither is the op.
bordercases 8y ago
Timely since Bezos is going to run for President.
AndresToro 8y ago
I don't understand the logic that Amazon is doing this for greed or their shareholders. Amazon is the leading company, the number one cost in a business is labor period, they don't have to be early adopters they can be last one in, their business models have nothing to do with service members interacting extensively with customers. So there is no benefit for first one in profile margin sense, they are making less money today then they were yesterday and will continue to do so, from a business standpoint they are working at a disadvantage against any competitors right now. If they are doing it to look good that means they are doing because they value looking good in terms of ethics, if that is true then they are essentially acting in the right. They could have easily went to $9 or $10 to avoid government penalties.
saudioger 8y ago
Amazon has been facing extreme pressure to do this (strikes, political action), they did the right thing finally, but some cynicism is warranted. We can praise AND criticize — there's nothing wrong with that.
behringer 8y ago
No what we want Amazon to do is pay a fair wage. Did they offset hourly wage with some other benefit making the total benefits the same? I'd really like to know where this extra money is coming from.

by pkulak 8y ago

wjnc 8y ago

Well in this respect: Amazon chooses to link the two discussions themselves. They could have easily made their communication less open to an easy attack by pledging $15 an hour while lobbying silently, or at least communicating that on another moment. They could have noble intentions with both moves. I'd even expect them to have noble intentions since $15 seems an unreasonable large increase from $7.25. Why link to two discussions? It's an error of their communication department IMHO. You've got to think as the receiving party. The receiving parties of both messages are separate: communicate them separately.

YorkianTones 8y ago
While it would be in Amazon's interest to get the federal minimum wage increased after setting their internal minimum wage at $15/hr, why is this negative? Aligning business interests with the public good is brilliant IMO and I strongly feel a $15 minimum wage, plus regular increases, is for the public good. Kudos to Amazon for making the wage increase and aligning their business interests and lobbying efforts to a federal wage increase.
IgorPartola 8y ago
Wait, why is it bad that Amazon is lobbying for this? Would you say it was bad if, say, ACLU was lobbying for a $15 minimum wage? My guess is that from Amazon's point of view, they are winning political points by not just raising their own minimum wage to $15, they are also using their standing in the industry to increase quality of life for non-Amazon minimum wage workers. If they succeed, I am happy to grant them the credit they are due. If a big corporation doing the right thing results in more profits for them, I don't see that as grounds for criticism. Did we criticize Starbucks when they offered a competitive wage and free college education? Or any of the other companies that chose to pay above the minimum?
- jpmoyn 8y ago
  It isn't bad that they are doing it, they are just pointing out the probable motivation.
- fendy3002 8y ago
  My guess is because how big advantage amazon has compared to smaller companies. They have good tax cut. Taking that aside, they also applied tight working time and high kpi, which can't be applied by smaller companies. And it gets better with PR stunt like this. And CMIIW, I think increased minimum wage will increase goods price and higher skilled worker's wage overall, making those changes useless again. It's just my 2 cents, with source limited from following recent news.
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  By lobbying for the $15 minimum wage they are working to make sure that their competitors don’t retain any competitive advantage on wages. So now the brick and mortar shop that is barely in business because of competition with Amazon is going to get hit with a big bump in wage costs. They either will raise prices, or go out of business, both scenarios benefit Amazon.
  - jdmichal 8y ago
    That's a nice story, but it's just that. Alternatively, all the minimum wage workers will have more expendable income. Some of that may be spent at those brick-and-mortar shops, and will offset the additional costs. Remember that the velocity of money makes it a non-zero-sum game. EDIT: Ends up that Wikipedia covers this nicely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States#Economic_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta... "The interconnection of price levels, central bank policy, wage agreements, and total aggregate demand creates a situation in which conclusions drawn from macroeconomic analysis are highly influenced by the underlying assumptions of the interpreter." Also has a nice side-bar quote from Henry Ford, who was partially known for higher wages, and which I think addresses the point I was trying to make (emphasis mine): "The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One's own employees ought to be one's own best customers."

L_Rahman 8y ago

When the topic in question is how one of the most powerful companies on Earth chooses to use its power we should strive to always be this cynical. Skepticism of concentrated power is the ur-American political belief. We seem to have forgotten that lately.

pkulak 8y ago
If you're willing to shame a company for behavior you don't like, I think you should be prepared to give praise when they do exactly what you just asked for. When you constantly move the goal posts just so that you never have to abandon your righteous anger for even one day, what kind of incentive does that give companies to change their behavior?
- meko 8y ago
  Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. They only act in the interest of revenue. Sometimes those interests align with the employees, but let's not pretend this isn't self preservation on amazon's behalf.
  - mikybee93 8y ago
    That's silly. You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest. We only do things to make ourselves feel good, or make ourselves look better. I think that companies have many paths towards self preservation, and that choosing the paths that lead to a better world deserve praise regardless of motive.
    - komali2 8y ago
      I disagree there, because all throughout history are examples of genuine heroes who stood to benefit not at all from their actions. Vince Coleman[0] comes to mind. Humans can be motivated by many things, profit and looking good included. I'm vaguely aware of a philosophical branch that postulates that all actions are selfish, but that ain't science and so I disagree. People will sacrifice their pyramid of needs towards s greater good, I've never heard of a company utterly scuttling profits over the greater good though. On that note, in this case Amazon obviously is shedding profit for a greater good here, especially if they actually lobby, so in this case I believe they (particularly the people that made this decision) deserve praise. (0)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Coleman_%28train_dispatcher%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Coleman_%28train_dispatc...?

jpmoyn 8y ago

The person is just pointing out a logical big-business reason behind the decision they are making. It is pretty likely that they did it for PR, and the lobbying will help that as well, even if it doesn't work. No one has to "suck it up and give praise where praise is due".

overthemoon 8y ago

We do not owe Amazon a positive outlook.

mc32 8y ago

You can both be right. It’s great that they made this move after much criticism, prodding and foot dragging, but... this reaction can also be calculated so that not only they have to carry this load alone but spread it to competitors. In other words AMZN is willing to do it, but they don’t want to be the only ones “burdened” unlike Costco who did it out of concern and perhaps principle (and competitive advantage by ensuring a more stable workforce) but less as part of manoeuvering.

ntsplnkv2 8y ago
Seems like a ridiculous risk to take given it is reliant on the US government that is unequivocally pro-business right now and will be until at least 2020.
- mc32 8y ago
  Not so sure about that. Many businesses are upset at the import tariffs complaining it will affect them. We also have many labor unions cautiously optimistic about support ftom the current admin. Let’s also not forget that while Repubs have traditionally been pro business, Dems, since the 80s have also got cozy with business and get humongous donations from corps —something which was not the case pre 1980s.
  - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
    That's true, but with regards to the minimum wage, which is the topic we are on, republicans are typically against raising it. > Let’s also not forget that while Repubs have traditionally been pro business, Dems, since the 80s have also got cozy with business and get humongous donations from corps —something which was not the case pre 1980s. I don't intend to engage on "x is better than y." or whataboutism comparing political parties. It is simply a valid observation that republicans are more likely to be against raising the minimum wage, so it would follow that if Amazon is only doing this in the hopes that the government will raise it anyway and other companies would have to pay more, it would be an absurd risk to take.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago

resters 8y ago

I think you are assuming there is a conflict between Amazon's business interest and the interest of employees. Higher compensation is not done out of generosity, nor should it be. If it were it would be charity. Higher compensation is done out of the desire to attract and retain better workers. If Amazon started paying unemployed people or giving them gift cards to buy things on Amazon, then it would be charity.

superflyguy 8y ago

"Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical?" The top comment is the most popular one.

monktastic1 8y ago
Right, so put another way: "wow, why is cynicism so popular on HN?"

nindalf 8y ago

> does the top comment always have to be cynical? It's easy to mistake cynicism for wisdom.

dv_dt 8y ago

I think we should praise this move by Amazon, but also realize they're probably the world leader in warehouse robotics. If they raise wages, and push for wage increases now, there is a short term effect of reduced profits for Amazon, but it also puts pressure on raising costs for competitors while Amazon is on a path to being much better insulated from those costs. It also gives them better community relations basis when siting or expanding locations. Is this cynical, or good move on the part of Amazon? A little of both. It is a smart long-term profit move for Amazon. But I would also say that overall would be great to spark a trend where companies compete via both smart capital investments to raise productivity, and being willing the share the benefit of rising productivity to employees as a tool against competitors.

onemoresoop 8y ago
Perhaps they raised minimum wages with the future goal to lay off staff that can be "robotized". After that the remaining workers would certainly have a higher load of dealing with the robots and would most likely not be willing to work for less than $15/h. This can also can earn amazon a good guy reputation so that their future move can be justified. I hope i'm wrong but my instinct tells me that Amazon will not loose a cent on this move.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  Future staff that can be robotized would be laid off no matter what their pay. Or maybe I should say within a wide band of salaries as I doubt that 10-12 vs 15/hr makes much of a difference on that balance. But I don't think all workers would be eliminated within a warehouse, and I can't estimate if the remaining jobs will be higher load or lower load physically.

rodrodrod 8y ago

> Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical? Middlebrow dismissals are a hacker news staple. http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissals-so-tempting/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissal...

hannasanarion 8y ago
Do oblique references to middlebrow dismissal count as middlebrow dismissal?
dang 8y ago
They're a homo internetus and ultimately a homo sapiens staple. Alas.

Kim_Bruning 8y ago

I -for one- applaud this example of cynical enlightened self interest. Because no matter how cynical or self interested, there's still the enlightened part. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing, fwiw.

zouhair 8y ago

If anything that is not enough cynicism. There is still the matter of work conditions.

jquip 8y ago

Perhaps, if you'd look at it this way: Almost every article posted here speaks for the topic at hand. Many comments provide reasonable counterviews and create a sense of insight and nuance. This creates a sense of a somewhat balanced viewpoint about the topic. It's not that scoffers or only cynics here are upvoted. Sadly, cynicism often does seem to be the main emotion doing the rounds.

C1sc0cat 8y ago

And also it will improve the quality cohort of the workforce they can target.

BurningFrog 8y ago

> This is exactly what everyone wanted Amazon to do You really need to get out of your bubble. A lot of us who understand economics genuinely think minimum wages hurt the poor, and think this can bring a lot of unemployment.

s73v3r_ 8y ago
Please do not insinuate that those of us who support higher minimum wages do not understand economics. It's extremely uncivil.

dgzl 8y ago

You're not wrong, not neither is the op.

bordercases 8y ago

Timely since Bezos is going to run for President.

AndresToro 8y ago

I don't understand the logic that Amazon is doing this for greed or their shareholders. Amazon is the leading company, the number one cost in a business is labor period, they don't have to be early adopters they can be last one in, their business models have nothing to do with service members interacting extensively with customers. So there is no benefit for first one in profile margin sense, they are making less money today then they were yesterday and will continue to do so, from a business standpoint they are working at a disadvantage against any competitors right now. If they are doing it to look good that means they are doing because they value looking good in terms of ethics, if that is true then they are essentially acting in the right. They could have easily went to $9 or $10 to avoid government penalties.

saudioger 8y ago

Amazon has been facing extreme pressure to do this (strikes, political action), they did the right thing finally, but some cynicism is warranted. We can praise AND criticize — there's nothing wrong with that.

behringer 8y ago

No what we want Amazon to do is pay a fair wage. Did they offset hourly wage with some other benefit making the total benefits the same? I'd really like to know where this extra money is coming from.