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>Working at a bootstrapped company is not going to earn you an exit worth more than a Ford Focus unless you have a non-trivial equity stake. I'd much rather be

>Working at a bootstrapped company is not going to earn you an exit worth more than a Ford Focus unless you have a non-trivial equity stake. I'd much rather be told that six-figures is a sure thing for basically eternity than know one day I could lose my job without warning, but hey maybe we'll (read: the founders) will become billionaires / millionaires. Playing the startup lottery is a dumb prospect for short-sighted 20-year olds. Absolutely nothing wrong with joining a startup (I love them and plan on working at them for the foreseeable future), but you have to go in with the hedge that it might go to zero unless they plan on avoiding unsustainable VC-funded growth by finding sustainable profit High and stable income put into investments and savings then leaving and founding your own bootstrapped company is the way to go. I'd much rather know I can sustainably increase my income over time than knowing I'll have to hit it big to not be in debt or lose someone's money. VC is a fool's game. You have to be crazy enough to think you'll win, which is great for those huge wins but not so great for the losers who will have dumped 5 years and their sweat and tears to make $0 or have lost money.

ummonk 8y ago
If you want a reliable income while you save up, why not work at a large company with much higher total comp? Netflix even does all cash.
- madamelic 8y ago
  I don't like hoops. I feel like startups are more about whether you can do the work, rather than learning and playing 4D Chutes and Ladders. I've interviewed at large places and they either blew me off because no one cares (why would they) or they had pointless interview questions (cough google)
- toast0 8y ago
  The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. A small company with a business model and decent people is a much more enjoyable work environment. (OTOH, a small company with bad people is much worse). A company with revenue and a plan can afford to pay a reasonable salary, although it might not be fully competitive with total comp at a top firm. If either job comes with a lottery ticket, I guess that's sort of nice?
  - levosmetalo 8y ago
    > The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. Smaller company doesn't have to mean less bullshit. It's just a different kind of bullshit.
    - rocky1138 8y ago
      No, it definitely means less as well. There is still different bullshit but overall there is indeed less.
      - spookthesunset 8y ago
        Oh there can be plenty of bullshit in a small startup. When a company is small, there is very little place to move laterally to avoid dealing with people you find annoying. Especially if those annoying people have seniority over you by way of being in on the startup before you got in. They are unfireable and their ideas are held as gospel. They can take the form of your manager, or colleague, or anybody in the company and the option is to either deal with it or bail on the company. In a larger company with many teams, you can usually route around such people by switching to a different org. Plus their power is often more constrained because there is just more people in the company.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    I’ve worked at the largest tech companies, a 12 person startup and plenty of sizes in between. They all have BS. Small startups are not immune. The dog-and-pony shows for potential investors. The demo-ware for trade shows. The daily distractions and direct exposure to indecisive execs, without a layer of “management shielding”. I have yet to find the perfect company.
    - mooreds 8y ago
      > They all have BS. I think this is the most profound thing I've learned in my career. But an even more important lesson is that you have to find a place where the B.S. is tolerable to you. For some people the politics of a bigco may be impossible to deal with, for others the "another month, another pivot" shiny objects syndrome of a small startup may be the issue. Every place has B.S. That's why they call it "work" and not "fun". Find a place where the B.S. is tolerable (or, better yet, minimal).
sambull 8y ago
I made this mistake as a starry eyed 20 y/o. Blood sweet and tears, and the end of the day my piece of the pie got turned into nothing as some VC money moved in. My 6 years there working in the data-center at 2am and 70+ hrs weeks became worth just my salary, and then the company/VC decided to IPO in 2008 (yea that's right) within a 2 months of the IPO failing they sold off our clients, gear and let all us go with 1 week notice.
scarface74 8y ago
I'd much rather be told that six-figures is a sure thing for basically eternity then know one day I could lose my job without warning, You can lose your job anywhere without much warning. The trick is don’t depend on your job for your long term livelihood. Instead, depend on a marketable set of skills and a network that can help you land another job quickly.
- malloryerik 8y ago
  Or work for yourself and have a diverse set of clients, and ideally a diverse set of products and services. Shouldn't diversification apply to work as it does to investments (modern portfolio theory)?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I sleep very soundly knowing that the only things I have to worry about are: 1. Going in to work and doing the best job I can. 2. Making sure my skillset is marketable and keeping my resume continuously updated 3. Keeping in touch with my local network of recruiters. In 20+ years, it’s never taken me more than a month to get a job and once, I left a contract (long story) with nothing lined up, met a recruiter for lunch on Monday and had a job offer with a what was then a Fortune 10 company by Thursday[1]. If I worked for myself, I would be constantly hustling for clients, collecting payments etc. Working for a company means money shows up in my account twice a month for exactly the same amount. If the company goes bust, I can find another job. If I want to take a vacation or get sick, other people take up the slack and I still get paid. I’m no special snowflake, anyone in my metro area that has kept their skills up can easily find a job. [1] Yes that was dumb luck, the department that I was hired into was a recently acquired startup and their HR hadn’t been fully integrated into the large slow moving bureaucracy.
    - malloryerik 8y ago
      You're absolutely right, those are the tradeoffs and it's a matter of lifestyle preference. Having someone to help with administrative issues makes a tremendous difference, by the way, but all I meant was to share my surprise at discovering that not being an employee could be much more stable than I'd thought, sometimes even more stable than being one, and that the source of much of that stability can come from diversification of clients and products/services offered, just as with an investment portfolio. Btw I think health insurance is the biggest problem here, in the US. Anyway I didn't mean in any way that being employed by a company was some kind of bad choice, not at all!
vidarh 8y ago
VC is a fools game if you bet on the company going big to the extent that you're willing to work for nothing time after time. Take more risk when you get large chunks of equity, but even then expect a decent salary relatively quickly. When you go into it demanding what you're worth and knowing the risks, on the other hand, it's not a fools game. It's a calculated high risk, high reward ride. I've worked in many VC funded startups, and I've made money on all of them. Mostly not much above a normal job, but I've only ever put in "free" work or underpaid work for short periods, and then compensated with higher income later. It's about not getting taken in by the sales pitch to the extent that you stop negotiating, and about not overestimating the value of the equity on the table. I typically won't take an offer that I wouldn't have taken in a non-startup without the equity.

ummonk 8y ago

If you want a reliable income while you save up, why not work at a large company with much higher total comp? Netflix even does all cash.

madamelic 8y ago
I don't like hoops. I feel like startups are more about whether you can do the work, rather than learning and playing 4D Chutes and Ladders. I've interviewed at large places and they either blew me off because no one cares (why would they) or they had pointless interview questions (cough google)
toast0 8y ago
The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. A small company with a business model and decent people is a much more enjoyable work environment. (OTOH, a small company with bad people is much worse). A company with revenue and a plan can afford to pay a reasonable salary, although it might not be fully competitive with total comp at a top firm. If either job comes with a lottery ticket, I guess that's sort of nice?
- levosmetalo 8y ago
  > The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. Smaller company doesn't have to mean less bullshit. It's just a different kind of bullshit.
  - rocky1138 8y ago
    No, it definitely means less as well. There is still different bullshit but overall there is indeed less.
    - spookthesunset 8y ago
      Oh there can be plenty of bullshit in a small startup. When a company is small, there is very little place to move laterally to avoid dealing with people you find annoying. Especially if those annoying people have seniority over you by way of being in on the startup before you got in. They are unfireable and their ideas are held as gospel. They can take the form of your manager, or colleague, or anybody in the company and the option is to either deal with it or bail on the company. In a larger company with many teams, you can usually route around such people by switching to a different org. Plus their power is often more constrained because there is just more people in the company.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  I’ve worked at the largest tech companies, a 12 person startup and plenty of sizes in between. They all have BS. Small startups are not immune. The dog-and-pony shows for potential investors. The demo-ware for trade shows. The daily distractions and direct exposure to indecisive execs, without a layer of “management shielding”. I have yet to find the perfect company.
  - mooreds 8y ago
    > They all have BS. I think this is the most profound thing I've learned in my career. But an even more important lesson is that you have to find a place where the B.S. is tolerable to you. For some people the politics of a bigco may be impossible to deal with, for others the "another month, another pivot" shiny objects syndrome of a small startup may be the issue. Every place has B.S. That's why they call it "work" and not "fun". Find a place where the B.S. is tolerable (or, better yet, minimal).

sambull 8y ago

I made this mistake as a starry eyed 20 y/o. Blood sweet and tears, and the end of the day my piece of the pie got turned into nothing as some VC money moved in. My 6 years there working in the data-center at 2am and 70+ hrs weeks became worth just my salary, and then the company/VC decided to IPO in 2008 (yea that's right) within a 2 months of the IPO failing they sold off our clients, gear and let all us go with 1 week notice.

scarface74 8y ago

I'd much rather be told that six-figures is a sure thing for basically eternity then know one day I could lose my job without warning, You can lose your job anywhere without much warning. The trick is don’t depend on your job for your long term livelihood. Instead, depend on a marketable set of skills and a network that can help you land another job quickly.

malloryerik 8y ago
Or work for yourself and have a diverse set of clients, and ideally a diverse set of products and services. Shouldn't diversification apply to work as it does to investments (modern portfolio theory)?
- scarface74 8y ago
  I sleep very soundly knowing that the only things I have to worry about are: 1. Going in to work and doing the best job I can. 2. Making sure my skillset is marketable and keeping my resume continuously updated 3. Keeping in touch with my local network of recruiters. In 20+ years, it’s never taken me more than a month to get a job and once, I left a contract (long story) with nothing lined up, met a recruiter for lunch on Monday and had a job offer with a what was then a Fortune 10 company by Thursday[1]. If I worked for myself, I would be constantly hustling for clients, collecting payments etc. Working for a company means money shows up in my account twice a month for exactly the same amount. If the company goes bust, I can find another job. If I want to take a vacation or get sick, other people take up the slack and I still get paid. I’m no special snowflake, anyone in my metro area that has kept their skills up can easily find a job. [1] Yes that was dumb luck, the department that I was hired into was a recently acquired startup and their HR hadn’t been fully integrated into the large slow moving bureaucracy.
  - malloryerik 8y ago
    You're absolutely right, those are the tradeoffs and it's a matter of lifestyle preference. Having someone to help with administrative issues makes a tremendous difference, by the way, but all I meant was to share my surprise at discovering that not being an employee could be much more stable than I'd thought, sometimes even more stable than being one, and that the source of much of that stability can come from diversification of clients and products/services offered, just as with an investment portfolio. Btw I think health insurance is the biggest problem here, in the US. Anyway I didn't mean in any way that being employed by a company was some kind of bad choice, not at all!

vidarh 8y ago

VC is a fools game if you bet on the company going big to the extent that you're willing to work for nothing time after time. Take more risk when you get large chunks of equity, but even then expect a decent salary relatively quickly. When you go into it demanding what you're worth and knowing the risks, on the other hand, it's not a fools game. It's a calculated high risk, high reward ride. I've worked in many VC funded startups, and I've made money on all of them. Mostly not much above a normal job, but I've only ever put in "free" work or underpaid work for short periods, and then compensated with higher income later. It's about not getting taken in by the sales pitch to the extent that you stop negotiating, and about not overestimating the value of the equity on the table. I typically won't take an offer that I wouldn't have taken in a non-startup without the equity.