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It’s time we passed a moratorium on building articles like this that fail to address the real villain in this affair: vacant properties deliberately kept vacant

It’s time we passed a moratorium on building articles like this that fail to address the real villain in this affair: vacant properties deliberately kept vacant, because tenants drive property values way down. San Francisco bears way too much resemblance to an end-stage game of Monopoly, where one player owns almost all the properties, there’s no more paper money in the bank, and there are no more houses or hotels left in the box. That last $150 house on Marvin Gardens (the only misspelled property) isn’t getting built to generate a good ROI- it’s built to either ruin the competition when they stay there (driving them to the poor house- sound familiar?), or because there’s literally no more places to stash your wealth. Tossing the game board sure sounds like the only good move left to make. That, or getting up to leave.

exp1orer 8y ago
Looking at data from the US Census [1], in 2017 the SF-Oakland-Hayward metro area had: * a rental vacancy rate of 4.2% (8th lowest out of the 75 largest metro areas) * a homeowner vacancy rate of 0.7% (11th lowest) The rates were similar for the San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara metro area. It's possible there are issues with this data, or that it's not measuring the phenomenon you're discussing, but this certainly seems to suggest that SF doesn't have a ton of vacant properties. [1] https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/ann17ind.html https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/ann17ind.html
- innocentfelon 8y ago
  There needs to be a similar moratorium on this red herring of an argument. Buildings off the rental market don’t count as vacant rentals. Failure to understand this normally subtle distinction retards the progress of this discussion. If I said there are very few single women in SF because 98% of marriage-minded women are married, you’d see the flaw in the reasoning I’m talking about.
  - epistasis 8y ago
    This is not a very effective way to convince bystanders that have not yet already come to a conclusion. I'm left wondering what you mean, but also afraid to engage because you're pretty hostile to what seems to be some great data around what you're saying. But to address that data, you now say that clearly what we thought you were saying was not what you meant, and that we should be disallowed from bringing up data? But at the risk that I'm continuing to misunderstand what you're saying, could you point out an example of a building that should be for rent but that is vacant instead, as an example so that we can understand you? What mechanism do you suggest that can find such buildings and compel them to become rented? Are you suggesting something like building on vacant land or underutilized land (the YIMBY position), or just existing buildings?
    - BurritoAlPastor 8y ago
      I don’t have a horse in this fight, but: In ordinary speech, the word “vacant” is generally synonymous with “empty”, and makes no implication about market status. You use the word the same way above, actually. So it’s lame to characterize that “we thought you were saying” vacancies in the politically defined sense of some not-yet-linked data.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - michaelt 8y ago
      I'm left wondering what you mean, As you can tell from the fact the rental vacancy rate is 4.2%, the homeowner vacancy rate is 0.7%, and the gross vacancy rate is higher than either at 6.0%, there are vacant properties that don't fall into either rental or homeowner. For example properties for occasional use, properties empty for repairs or renovation, those used as offices or storage, guest houses and AirBnB properties, properties where the owner hasn't decided what to do, and so on. If you look at [1] (which sadly doesn't provide breakdowns by individual metropolitan area) you'll find that inside US metropolitan statistical areas, 2.4% of properties are vacant but for rent; while 4.8% of properties are "Held off market" In other words, for every one vacant rental home, there are two homes that aren't on the rental or sale market. [1] https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/q218ind.html https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/q218ind.html Table 10. Percent Distribution by Type of Vacant by Metro/Nonmetro Area [XLSX - 375 KB]

exp1orer 8y ago

Looking at data from the US Census [1], in 2017 the SF-Oakland-Hayward metro area had: * a rental vacancy rate of 4.2% (8th lowest out of the 75 largest metro areas) * a homeowner vacancy rate of 0.7% (11th lowest) The rates were similar for the San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara metro area. It's possible there are issues with this data, or that it's not measuring the phenomenon you're discussing, but this certainly seems to suggest that SF doesn't have a ton of vacant properties. [1] https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/ann17ind.html https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/ann17ind.html

innocentfelon 8y ago
There needs to be a similar moratorium on this red herring of an argument. Buildings off the rental market don’t count as vacant rentals. Failure to understand this normally subtle distinction retards the progress of this discussion. If I said there are very few single women in SF because 98% of marriage-minded women are married, you’d see the flaw in the reasoning I’m talking about.
- epistasis 8y ago
  This is not a very effective way to convince bystanders that have not yet already come to a conclusion. I'm left wondering what you mean, but also afraid to engage because you're pretty hostile to what seems to be some great data around what you're saying. But to address that data, you now say that clearly what we thought you were saying was not what you meant, and that we should be disallowed from bringing up data? But at the risk that I'm continuing to misunderstand what you're saying, could you point out an example of a building that should be for rent but that is vacant instead, as an example so that we can understand you? What mechanism do you suggest that can find such buildings and compel them to become rented? Are you suggesting something like building on vacant land or underutilized land (the YIMBY position), or just existing buildings?
  - BurritoAlPastor 8y ago
    I don’t have a horse in this fight, but: In ordinary speech, the word “vacant” is generally synonymous with “empty”, and makes no implication about market status. You use the word the same way above, actually. So it’s lame to characterize that “we thought you were saying” vacancies in the politically defined sense of some not-yet-linked data.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - michaelt 8y ago
    I'm left wondering what you mean, As you can tell from the fact the rental vacancy rate is 4.2%, the homeowner vacancy rate is 0.7%, and the gross vacancy rate is higher than either at 6.0%, there are vacant properties that don't fall into either rental or homeowner. For example properties for occasional use, properties empty for repairs or renovation, those used as offices or storage, guest houses and AirBnB properties, properties where the owner hasn't decided what to do, and so on. If you look at [1] (which sadly doesn't provide breakdowns by individual metropolitan area) you'll find that inside US metropolitan statistical areas, 2.4% of properties are vacant but for rent; while 4.8% of properties are "Held off market" In other words, for every one vacant rental home, there are two homes that aren't on the rental or sale market. [1] https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/q218ind.html https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/q218ind.html Table 10. Percent Distribution by Type of Vacant by Metro/Nonmetro Area [XLSX - 375 KB]