5 ms·

The math around e.g. bootstrapped companies is very unpromising though - at the end of the day there is still risk, though maybe a bit less (still unquantifiabl

The math around e.g. bootstrapped companies is very unpromising though - at the end of the day there is still risk, though maybe a bit less (still unquantifiable), and the upside is near zero. Working at a bootstrapped company is not going to earn you an exit worth more than a Ford Focus unless you have a non-trivial equity stake.

hef19898 8y ago
That depends on the stock plan and the nature of the business. If it is a stable company with growing revenue without VC funding all you need is an owner willing to share out profits accordingly to employees. Then it is not an exit per se but a steady, not to low income. And the option of being acquired, and paid for your shares without beneficial treatment of VCs, isn't to bad neither, is it?
- staticautomatic 8y ago
  Yeah. Let's not forget that being boostrapped doesn't prevent the company from issuing options or RSU's. Although not quite the same thing, ESOPs are nothing to sneeze at either. I got a "free" $100k in retirement money from a former employer who used an ESOP to buy out the aging founders.
madamelic 8y ago
>Working at a bootstrapped company is not going to earn you an exit worth more than a Ford Focus unless you have a non-trivial equity stake. I'd much rather be told that six-figures is a sure thing for basically eternity than know one day I could lose my job without warning, but hey maybe we'll (read: the founders) will become billionaires / millionaires. Playing the startup lottery is a dumb prospect for short-sighted 20-year olds. Absolutely nothing wrong with joining a startup (I love them and plan on working at them for the foreseeable future), but you have to go in with the hedge that it might go to zero unless they plan on avoiding unsustainable VC-funded growth by finding sustainable profit High and stable income put into investments and savings then leaving and founding your own bootstrapped company is the way to go. I'd much rather know I can sustainably increase my income over time than knowing I'll have to hit it big to not be in debt or lose someone's money. VC is a fool's game. You have to be crazy enough to think you'll win, which is great for those huge wins but not so great for the losers who will have dumped 5 years and their sweat and tears to make $0 or have lost money.
- ummonk 8y ago
  If you want a reliable income while you save up, why not work at a large company with much higher total comp? Netflix even does all cash.
  - madamelic 8y ago
    I don't like hoops. I feel like startups are more about whether you can do the work, rather than learning and playing 4D Chutes and Ladders. I've interviewed at large places and they either blew me off because no one cares (why would they) or they had pointless interview questions (cough google)
  - toast0 8y ago
    The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. A small company with a business model and decent people is a much more enjoyable work environment. (OTOH, a small company with bad people is much worse). A company with revenue and a plan can afford to pay a reasonable salary, although it might not be fully competitive with total comp at a top firm. If either job comes with a lottery ticket, I guess that's sort of nice?
    - levosmetalo 8y ago
      > The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. Smaller company doesn't have to mean less bullshit. It's just a different kind of bullshit.
      - rocky1138 8y ago
        No, it definitely means less as well. There is still different bullshit but overall there is indeed less.
        spookthesunset 8y ago
        Oh there can be plenty of bullshit in a small startup. When a company is small, there is very little place to move laterally to avoid dealing with people you find annoying. Especially if those annoying people have seniority over you by way of being in on the startup before you got in. They are unfireable and their ideas are held as gospel. They can take the form of your manager, or colleague, or anybody in the company and the option is to either deal with it or bail on the company. In a larger company with many teams, you can usually route around such people by switching to a different org. Plus their power is often more constrained because there is just more people in the company.
untog 8y ago
A VC funded company isn't necessarily going to pay out anything. Startups fail all the time. VC-backed ones even more often because they need to secure rounds of funding over and over - not to mention your equity being diluted over and over when they do. When you consider company equity to be a nest egg but don't actually have any control over whether it'll be a success or not you're making a bet. I don't blame anyone who isn't interested in that game.
icedchai 8y ago
True, but working at most VC startups won't get you an exit worth more than a Ford Focus, either. So many things have to go right.

hef19898 8y ago

That depends on the stock plan and the nature of the business. If it is a stable company with growing revenue without VC funding all you need is an owner willing to share out profits accordingly to employees. Then it is not an exit per se but a steady, not to low income. And the option of being acquired, and paid for your shares without beneficial treatment of VCs, isn't to bad neither, is it?

staticautomatic 8y ago
Yeah. Let's not forget that being boostrapped doesn't prevent the company from issuing options or RSU's. Although not quite the same thing, ESOPs are nothing to sneeze at either. I got a "free" $100k in retirement money from a former employer who used an ESOP to buy out the aging founders.

madamelic 8y ago

>Working at a bootstrapped company is not going to earn you an exit worth more than a Ford Focus unless you have a non-trivial equity stake. I'd much rather be told that six-figures is a sure thing for basically eternity than know one day I could lose my job without warning, but hey maybe we'll (read: the founders) will become billionaires / millionaires. Playing the startup lottery is a dumb prospect for short-sighted 20-year olds. Absolutely nothing wrong with joining a startup (I love them and plan on working at them for the foreseeable future), but you have to go in with the hedge that it might go to zero unless they plan on avoiding unsustainable VC-funded growth by finding sustainable profit High and stable income put into investments and savings then leaving and founding your own bootstrapped company is the way to go. I'd much rather know I can sustainably increase my income over time than knowing I'll have to hit it big to not be in debt or lose someone's money. VC is a fool's game. You have to be crazy enough to think you'll win, which is great for those huge wins but not so great for the losers who will have dumped 5 years and their sweat and tears to make $0 or have lost money.

ummonk 8y ago
If you want a reliable income while you save up, why not work at a large company with much higher total comp? Netflix even does all cash.
- madamelic 8y ago
  I don't like hoops. I feel like startups are more about whether you can do the work, rather than learning and playing 4D Chutes and Ladders. I've interviewed at large places and they either blew me off because no one cares (why would they) or they had pointless interview questions (cough google)
- toast0 8y ago
  The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. A small company with a business model and decent people is a much more enjoyable work environment. (OTOH, a small company with bad people is much worse). A company with revenue and a plan can afford to pay a reasonable salary, although it might not be fully competitive with total comp at a top firm. If either job comes with a lottery ticket, I guess that's sort of nice?
  - levosmetalo 8y ago
    > The problem with working at a large company is dealing with all the large company BS. Smaller company doesn't have to mean less bullshit. It's just a different kind of bullshit.
    - rocky1138 8y ago
      No, it definitely means less as well. There is still different bullshit but overall there is indeed less.
      - spookthesunset 8y ago
        Oh there can be plenty of bullshit in a small startup. When a company is small, there is very little place to move laterally to avoid dealing with people you find annoying. Especially if those annoying people have seniority over you by way of being in on the startup before you got in. They are unfireable and their ideas are held as gospel. They can take the form of your manager, or colleague, or anybody in the company and the option is to either deal with it or bail on the company. In a larger company with many teams, you can usually route around such people by switching to a different org. Plus their power is often more constrained because there is just more people in the company.

untog 8y ago

A VC funded company isn't necessarily going to pay out anything. Startups fail all the time. VC-backed ones even more often because they need to secure rounds of funding over and over - not to mention your equity being diluted over and over when they do. When you consider company equity to be a nest egg but don't actually have any control over whether it'll be a success or not you're making a bet. I don't blame anyone who isn't interested in that game.

icedchai 8y ago

True, but working at most VC startups won't get you an exit worth more than a Ford Focus, either. So many things have to go right.