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They should rather pay for DTAG transit than do such shenanigans.

by nik736 8y ago

tombowditch 8y ago
They have DTAG I believe, you have to pay extra for it though.
- nik736 8y ago
  It's through Core Backbone, has nothing to do with this "unlimited traffic" thing and it is NOT possible to add that option for their cloud services.
stemuk 8y ago
IIRC they ended the DTAG transit agreement due to DTAG having unreasonable pricing requests for the renewed agreement (i.e. DTAG holding Hetzener hostage, you can read more about it here [1]. If you are interested you can still buy DTAG transit for your Hetzner servers via https://wiki.hetzner.de/index.php/Double_Paid_Traffic/en https://wiki.hetzner.de/index.php/Double_Paid_Traffic/en, do keep in mind however that this is a metered connection, not unlimited like for regular web traffic. [1] https://www.golem.de/news/hetzner-und-netzneutralitaet-extrakosten-fuer-bessere-anbindung-an-telekom-kunden-1511-117711.html https://www.golem.de/news/hetzner-und-netzneutralitaet-extra... (German)
- nik736 8y ago
  I know perfectly fine about this. It has nothing to do with being held hostage. DTAG simply wants to charge more money, which is just business. You can either pay it or not. Hetzner decided that it's not worth it for them, the victim is the customer, because you probably are only able to download with around 5mbps in the evening from a DTAG connection. The upgrade is not possible with their cloud services, so it's a nightmare if you are a DTAG customer. The same as Level3 charges more than others (even though not as extreme as DTAG) because they think their pipes are premium.
  - yayana 8y ago
    Sounds like a nightmare to be a DTAG customer.. But why would all of us pay to subsidize DTAG when we want servers in Europe peered with our reasonable ISPs and there are plenty of French ones?
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
    Hetzner simply wants to pay less money, which is just business. You can either sell at that price or not. DTAG decided that it's not worth it for them, the customer is the victim, because you probably are only able to download at around 5mbps in the evening from a Hetzner server. The upgrade is not possible with their internet connection, so it's a nightmare if you are a Hetzner customer. I mean, yeah, sure, it sucks for the customer. What I don't understand is your implication that this is Hetzner's fault. Both sides could accept the other side's conditions, neither side did, all of that is "just business". What isn't "just business" is asking much higher prices than the competition for the same kind of service and expecting customers to buy it. And if you find that there are customers who do buy anyway, that's a hint that you are dealing with a monopoly situation, which is appropriately described as "holding people hostage".
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
1. DTAG transit to where? 2. Assuming you don't really mean paying for transit, but paying DTAG for accepting traffic that DTAG's paying customers have requested to be sent to them from Hetzner: 2.1 Why? 2.2 When you say "they should pay", what you are really saying is "all of Hetzner's customers should pay". Thanks, but I am not interested. I intentionally don't use DTAG as a customer, and I am not interested in subsidizing those who do.
- nik736 8y ago
  1. While of course the main reason would be to get a "paid peering", the DTAG network is also very good to reach other destinations, so technically it makes it transit. 2.1. DTAG has a market share of around 40% in Germany. Without a direct connection to them you won't reach them properly. The connection trough other Tier 1 providers is is awful congested. 2.2. I don't want to sound offensive, but it doesn't really matter what you are doing. You are the exception, most people and your customers don't care about their business tactics, often times it's their only choice to go with DTAG. Of course the traffic pricing would increase, this is why I called it absurd to wave the traffic pricing, because Hetzner is offering a crippled line to 40% of Germany.
  - mrunkel 8y ago
    Why do you think it's Heztner's responsibility to provide good service to DTAG's customers? If the connection between DTAG's network and Heztner's isn't good, shouldn't both networks work to improve the situation?
  - toast0 8y ago
    Your 1 and 2.1 don't go well together. If DTAG is well connected to other networks, it shouldn't also be congested when reached through other networks.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
    > 1. While of course the main reason would be to get a "paid peering", the DTAG network is also very good to reach other destinations, so technically it makes it transit. Just because DTAG also offers transit, doesn't make a peering connection a transit connection, so, no, it doesn't. That's as absurd as saying that DTAG is also very good at LTE networks, so technically that makes an internet peering connection an LTE connection. All this is about DTAG accepting traffic destined for their customers. Noone cares what DTAG charges for transit, and noone minds if DTAG drops transit traffic at peering points. > 2.1. DTAG has a market share of around 40% in Germany. Without a direct connection to them you won't reach them properly. The connection trough other Tier 1 providers is is awful congested. Which only explains why you would want to have a good connection to DTAG if possible. I asked why you should pay massively above-market rates for that. Also, suppose DTAG asked 1000 EUR per TB of inbound traffic. Would you still use that argument? If not, why not? > 2.2. I don't want to sound offensive, but it doesn't really matter what you are doing. You are the exception, most people and your customers don't care about their business tactics, often times it's their only choice to go with DTAG. It doesn't matter what I am doing when as a matter of fact I am doing what apparently most Hetzner customers are doing (that is: not buy DTAG peering traffic), which presumably is the exact reason why Hetzner still doesn't include DTAG peering traffic in their default package? Or are you saying that you think it shouldn't matter because Hetzner should raise prices for everyone, including me, to pay for DTAG peering traffic that most of us don't care about, because you know better what I should care about? My server has essentially no DTAG traffic, and certainly no bandwidth or latency critical DTAG traffic, so if you think that I should care about DTAG traffic, you are just wrong. Not every server is a public web server. Not every public web server is targeted primarily at a German audience, or even a German audience at all. I know when I need DTAG traffic and when I don't, and I don't care to subsidize DTAG traffic when I don't need it. Also, I don't think there is anywhere in Germany where DTAG IP is your only choice. > Of course the traffic pricing would increase, this is why I called it absurd to wave the traffic pricing, because Hetzner is offering a crippled line to 40% of Germany. That's just bullshit. Hetzner is offering a completely uncrippled connection to all of Germany. It's just that DTAG for some reason inserts a bottleneck into the connection of their customers instead of letting through the packets that Hetzner delivers to them completely free of any congestion. All you are saying is that Hetzner should raise prices so that I have to subsidize a protection racket that you choose to be affected by instead of giving me the product that I actually want. And all that while there are plenty of options on the market for high-priced hosting solutions that do include DTAG peering traffic, so it's not even that you can't buy what you want to buy. Just rent a Strato server, they are a DTAG company, and you will have no problem sending traffic to DTAG customers, instead of demanding that Hetzner offer the same product as Strato instead of what Hetzner's customers want.
vidarh 8y ago
Why? What proportion of their customers do you think care? I've used Hetzner for a lot of different things, and for none of them would the download speed for DTAG users be worth paying extra for.

They should rather pay for DTAG transit than do such shenanigans.

by nik736 8y ago

They should rather pay for DTAG transit than do such shenanigans.

tombowditch 8y ago

They have DTAG I believe, you have to pay extra for it though.

nik736 8y ago
It's through Core Backbone, has nothing to do with this "unlimited traffic" thing and it is NOT possible to add that option for their cloud services.

stemuk 8y ago

IIRC they ended the DTAG transit agreement due to DTAG having unreasonable pricing requests for the renewed agreement (i.e. DTAG holding Hetzener hostage, you can read more about it here [1]. If you are interested you can still buy DTAG transit for your Hetzner servers via https://wiki.hetzner.de/index.php/Double_Paid_Traffic/en https://wiki.hetzner.de/index.php/Double_Paid_Traffic/en, do keep in mind however that this is a metered connection, not unlimited like for regular web traffic. [1] https://www.golem.de/news/hetzner-und-netzneutralitaet-extrakosten-fuer-bessere-anbindung-an-telekom-kunden-1511-117711.html https://www.golem.de/news/hetzner-und-netzneutralitaet-extra... (German)

nik736 8y ago
I know perfectly fine about this. It has nothing to do with being held hostage. DTAG simply wants to charge more money, which is just business. You can either pay it or not. Hetzner decided that it's not worth it for them, the victim is the customer, because you probably are only able to download with around 5mbps in the evening from a DTAG connection. The upgrade is not possible with their cloud services, so it's a nightmare if you are a DTAG customer. The same as Level3 charges more than others (even though not as extreme as DTAG) because they think their pipes are premium.
- yayana 8y ago
  Sounds like a nightmare to be a DTAG customer.. But why would all of us pay to subsidize DTAG when we want servers in Europe peered with our reasonable ISPs and there are plenty of French ones?
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  Hetzner simply wants to pay less money, which is just business. You can either sell at that price or not. DTAG decided that it's not worth it for them, the customer is the victim, because you probably are only able to download at around 5mbps in the evening from a Hetzner server. The upgrade is not possible with their internet connection, so it's a nightmare if you are a Hetzner customer. I mean, yeah, sure, it sucks for the customer. What I don't understand is your implication that this is Hetzner's fault. Both sides could accept the other side's conditions, neither side did, all of that is "just business". What isn't "just business" is asking much higher prices than the competition for the same kind of service and expecting customers to buy it. And if you find that there are customers who do buy anyway, that's a hint that you are dealing with a monopoly situation, which is appropriately described as "holding people hostage".

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago

1. DTAG transit to where? 2. Assuming you don't really mean paying for transit, but paying DTAG for accepting traffic that DTAG's paying customers have requested to be sent to them from Hetzner: 2.1 Why? 2.2 When you say "they should pay", what you are really saying is "all of Hetzner's customers should pay". Thanks, but I am not interested. I intentionally don't use DTAG as a customer, and I am not interested in subsidizing those who do.

nik736 8y ago
1. While of course the main reason would be to get a "paid peering", the DTAG network is also very good to reach other destinations, so technically it makes it transit. 2.1. DTAG has a market share of around 40% in Germany. Without a direct connection to them you won't reach them properly. The connection trough other Tier 1 providers is is awful congested. 2.2. I don't want to sound offensive, but it doesn't really matter what you are doing. You are the exception, most people and your customers don't care about their business tactics, often times it's their only choice to go with DTAG. Of course the traffic pricing would increase, this is why I called it absurd to wave the traffic pricing, because Hetzner is offering a crippled line to 40% of Germany.
- mrunkel 8y ago
  Why do you think it's Heztner's responsibility to provide good service to DTAG's customers? If the connection between DTAG's network and Heztner's isn't good, shouldn't both networks work to improve the situation?
- toast0 8y ago
  Your 1 and 2.1 don't go well together. If DTAG is well connected to other networks, it shouldn't also be congested when reached through other networks.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  > 1. While of course the main reason would be to get a "paid peering", the DTAG network is also very good to reach other destinations, so technically it makes it transit. Just because DTAG also offers transit, doesn't make a peering connection a transit connection, so, no, it doesn't. That's as absurd as saying that DTAG is also very good at LTE networks, so technically that makes an internet peering connection an LTE connection. All this is about DTAG accepting traffic destined for their customers. Noone cares what DTAG charges for transit, and noone minds if DTAG drops transit traffic at peering points. > 2.1. DTAG has a market share of around 40% in Germany. Without a direct connection to them you won't reach them properly. The connection trough other Tier 1 providers is is awful congested. Which only explains why you would want to have a good connection to DTAG if possible. I asked why you should pay massively above-market rates for that. Also, suppose DTAG asked 1000 EUR per TB of inbound traffic. Would you still use that argument? If not, why not? > 2.2. I don't want to sound offensive, but it doesn't really matter what you are doing. You are the exception, most people and your customers don't care about their business tactics, often times it's their only choice to go with DTAG. It doesn't matter what I am doing when as a matter of fact I am doing what apparently most Hetzner customers are doing (that is: not buy DTAG peering traffic), which presumably is the exact reason why Hetzner still doesn't include DTAG peering traffic in their default package? Or are you saying that you think it shouldn't matter because Hetzner should raise prices for everyone, including me, to pay for DTAG peering traffic that most of us don't care about, because you know better what I should care about? My server has essentially no DTAG traffic, and certainly no bandwidth or latency critical DTAG traffic, so if you think that I should care about DTAG traffic, you are just wrong. Not every server is a public web server. Not every public web server is targeted primarily at a German audience, or even a German audience at all. I know when I need DTAG traffic and when I don't, and I don't care to subsidize DTAG traffic when I don't need it. Also, I don't think there is anywhere in Germany where DTAG IP is your only choice. > Of course the traffic pricing would increase, this is why I called it absurd to wave the traffic pricing, because Hetzner is offering a crippled line to 40% of Germany. That's just bullshit. Hetzner is offering a completely uncrippled connection to all of Germany. It's just that DTAG for some reason inserts a bottleneck into the connection of their customers instead of letting through the packets that Hetzner delivers to them completely free of any congestion. All you are saying is that Hetzner should raise prices so that I have to subsidize a protection racket that you choose to be affected by instead of giving me the product that I actually want. And all that while there are plenty of options on the market for high-priced hosting solutions that do include DTAG peering traffic, so it's not even that you can't buy what you want to buy. Just rent a Strato server, they are a DTAG company, and you will have no problem sending traffic to DTAG customers, instead of demanding that Hetzner offer the same product as Strato instead of what Hetzner's customers want.

vidarh 8y ago

Why? What proportion of their customers do you think care? I've used Hetzner for a lot of different things, and for none of them would the download speed for DTAG users be worth paying extra for.