3 ms·

https://youtu.be/P3AyI_u66Bw https://youtu.be/P3AyI_u66Bw Or search “gilectomy” on LWN. Or check out stackless etc.; it turns out removing the GIL technically

https://youtu.be/P3AyI_u66Bw https://youtu.be/P3AyI_u66Bw Or search “gilectomy” on LWN. Or check out stackless etc.; it turns out removing the GIL technically is historically one of the easier parts of removing the GIL entirely. It sounds like your main problem is with python’s GC model. Reference counting doesn’t have to be thread-unsafe, but in scripting/interpreted-ish languages that want their threading story to involve seamless (I.e. no special syntax unless you want it, it’s on you not to blow off your foot) sharing of state between threads at will, like Python and Ruby, a GIL or equivalent is the norm. Sometimes it’s not as intrusive as python’s, but it does seem like a necessary (or at least very likely) implementation pattern for languages that want to provide that seamlessness. You can have thread-safe reference counted GC in a traditional scripting language, but that tends to come with a much less automatic threading/concurrency API. Perl 5 is an example of that category, and it is implemented in C.

lisper 8y ago
> a GIL or equivalent is the norm Exactly. And why do you think that is? And in particular, why do you think it is the norm when it is decidedly NOT the norm for Common Lisp and Scheme? The norm for those languages is completely seamless native threading with no special syntax.
- zbentley 8y ago
  It seems like you're arguing in favor of a different language rather than a different implementation of Python. If you wanted to implement, say, the Python class/'object' type in a thread-safe way that didn't rely on a GIL and still freed memory according to approximately the same GC promises as the Python interpreter, I suspect you'd end up implementing something GIL-like in Scheme or Lisp (though my experience extends only to some Clojure and Racket in school, so I may be unaware of the capabilities of some other dialects). If you wanted to implement a language that looked a little like Python but had your favored Lisp's GC semantics and data structures, I'm sure you could. But it wouldn't be Python. That's without getting into the significant speed tradeoffs--you can make these languages fast, and I get the impression that there has been a ton of progress there in the last decade. But when Python was being created, and when it had to deal with the implications of concurrency in its chosen semantics? Not so. As I originally said: was it theoretically possible to build Python or equivalent on top of a non-C platform at the time? Sure. But I doubt that would have saved it from tradeoffs at least as severe as the GIL, and it definitely would not have been the pragmatic choice--"let's build it on $lisp_dialect and then spend time optimizing that dialect's runtime to be fast enough for us to put an interpreted scripting language on top of it" seems an unlikely strategy.
  - lisper 8y ago
    > If you wanted to implement, say, the Python class/'object' type in a thread-safe way that didn't rely on a GIL and still freed memory according to approximately the same GC promises as the Python interpreter, I suspect you'd end up implementing something GIL-like in Scheme or Lisp Nope. CLOS+MOP, which exists natively in nearly all CL implementations, is a superset of Python's object/class functionality.

lisper 8y ago

> a GIL or equivalent is the norm Exactly. And why do you think that is? And in particular, why do you think it is the norm when it is decidedly NOT the norm for Common Lisp and Scheme? The norm for those languages is completely seamless native threading with no special syntax.

zbentley 8y ago
It seems like you're arguing in favor of a different language rather than a different implementation of Python. If you wanted to implement, say, the Python class/'object' type in a thread-safe way that didn't rely on a GIL and still freed memory according to approximately the same GC promises as the Python interpreter, I suspect you'd end up implementing something GIL-like in Scheme or Lisp (though my experience extends only to some Clojure and Racket in school, so I may be unaware of the capabilities of some other dialects). If you wanted to implement a language that looked a little like Python but had your favored Lisp's GC semantics and data structures, I'm sure you could. But it wouldn't be Python. That's without getting into the significant speed tradeoffs--you can make these languages fast, and I get the impression that there has been a ton of progress there in the last decade. But when Python was being created, and when it had to deal with the implications of concurrency in its chosen semantics? Not so. As I originally said: was it theoretically possible to build Python or equivalent on top of a non-C platform at the time? Sure. But I doubt that would have saved it from tradeoffs at least as severe as the GIL, and it definitely would not have been the pragmatic choice--"let's build it on $lisp_dialect and then spend time optimizing that dialect's runtime to be fast enough for us to put an interpreted scripting language on top of it" seems an unlikely strategy.
- lisper 8y ago
  > If you wanted to implement, say, the Python class/'object' type in a thread-safe way that didn't rely on a GIL and still freed memory according to approximately the same GC promises as the Python interpreter, I suspect you'd end up implementing something GIL-like in Scheme or Lisp Nope. CLOS+MOP, which exists natively in nearly all CL implementations, is a superset of Python's object/class functionality.