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"What people don't understand about my job is that chances are you are not the person I'm examining. I examine doctors who expense three Cadillacs, insurance br

"What people don't understand about my job is that chances are you are not the person I'm examining. I examine doctors who expense three Cadillacs, insurance brokers who claim jet skis for business use only, and real estate agents who haven't paid taxes in eight years. The public doesn't realize that tax auditors are the only people between a balanced effective tax rate among all social classes and the bourgeoisie stealing what isn't bolted down. Don't kid yourself; these people are stealing from you. This money helps pay for schools, roads and with any luck can keep mortgage interest deduction alive for a few more years. I read a report on NPR that Italy has 40% of its population evading taxes. Imagine our debt crisis if we had the same problem. (Our tax evasion rate is estimated between 8-18%). So if you're one of those "Joe the Plumber" people who take time out of work to throw teabags at me on my way into the office in the morning: You are the middle class! I'm helping you!" https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/what-people-dont-get-about-my-job-from-a-rmy-soldier-to-z-ookeeper/244231/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/what-pe...

hueving 8y ago
Attempting to frame it as class warfare is a perfect way to lose support from a significant portion of the US population. "I'm Robin hood stealing from rich people" doesn't work for the people on the right who are more likely to complain more about the irs in the first place. Joe the plumber who runs his own plumbing business and doesn't pay taxes is going to get audited as well and he's (rightfully) going to lose despite his position in the middle class. This isn't "the bourgeois" stealing, it's anyone who deducts significant amounts of money, which is a broader/simpler message everyone can get behind. Every small business/individual contractor has the means to illegitimately write off tens of thousands of dollars.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- smileysteve 8y ago
  > Every small business/individual contractor has the means to illegitimately write off tens of thousands of dollars. But I'll add that every small business/contractor has the right to write off a lot of things, or portions of things that they use for business.
- SpikeDad 8y ago
  It worked up to this newest incarnation of right wing politics. The IRS should go after the big cheese because a) they're more often stealing from us and b) the return vs cost of audit is maximized. What sort of "promoting" of IRS tax audits and fraud cases do you think should be done?
- Ar-Curunir 8y ago
  It literally is class warfare; what else should it be portrayed as?
  - LanceH 8y ago
    The quote frames it as class warfare, then points out that 40% of Italy is evading taxes. So...40% of Italy is upper class? Sounds like something we should move to so we can have 40 times more people than the current 1%.
- noobermin 8y ago
  From who, those who do steal? What is tax fraud if it's not stealing? Why are crimes for some people not crimes while crimes for others punished so harshly? How is that not unfair already?
- ionised 8y ago
  > Attempting to frame it as class warfare is a perfect way to lose support from a significant portion of the US population. Why? That's exactly what it is.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  If you've ever listened to Trump or Palin or similar figures speak I'd have to say you would probably come to question this notion.
pastor_elm 8y ago
What people really don't understand is how much can be expensed by people who make a lot of money and structure their income as a business entity first. Meals, travel, vehicles, basically everything a regular person has to spend out of their own income to survive, these people get away with expensing as business expenses.
- PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
  The core problem is that businesses have to pay taxes on net while you and I have to pay taxes on gross. We need to equalize this. Either both should pay taxes on all money that goes through them (and have to change market prices accordingly) or people should only pay taxes on money they don't use in pursuit of living.
  - refurb 8y ago
    You want a business who has revenue of $100M and expenses of $150M to pay taxes?
    - tyingq 8y ago
      Maybe. What portion of the expenses went to executive salaries in exchange for this stellar outcome?
      - wahern 8y ago
        Does it matter? Those salaries are taxed. Indeed, all expenses are taxed because every dollar of expense represents a taxable gain at some point in the supply chain.
    - PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
      If I have expenses that cost me $150K this year but I only make $100K I often have to pay taxes. Some expenses are deductible in certain cases, but even then it isn't equivalent. All I'm saying is that both should be treated equally, which ever option that ends up being.
PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
>Don't kid yourself; these people are stealing from you. This seems like language specifically crafted to encourage an us vs. them view of taxation. Also, I notice the examples given are upper middle class/lower upper class, and not the top of top that evade the most taxes. Often legally, since there are so many massive tax loopholes that the richest get to legally avoid paying a share in proportion to the government goods and services they consume.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  True, but our budget already accounts for the super-wealthy using the loopholes. It doesn't account for the merely-very-wealthy committing outright tax fraud.
  - PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
    The thing is, that difference between outright tax fraud and loopholes is having enough money to lobby and for lobbying to be worthwhile. On some level it feels like punishing the poor for trying to emulate the wealthy, and the merely very wealthy (an interesting way of putting it) like lawyers and doctors often fall into the poor when you break it down to those who are truly rich or not.
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      No, the difference between outright tax fraud and loopholes is that one is knowingly against the rules and the other one is taking advantage of the rules. On some level it feels like punishing the poor for trying to emulate the wealthy, Let's get things straight: they're being punished for breaking the law, or more specifically, for fraud. The fact that they want to emulate the wealthy is irrelevant.
      - PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
        >breaking the law When the IRS is enforcing a corrupt law, it makes people who fear the corrupt law being enforced against them view the IRS as the bad guys. That it is the law only hurts the IRS's position in this. Until the IRS makes the truly wealthy pay their fair share, not their legal share, they will find themselves in a position lacking moral authority. Put another way, yes those loopholes are legal, but so is reducing the IRS's budget until they aren't able to operate at all.
furgooswft13 8y ago
> You are the middle class! I'm helping you! Oh yea? Stop stealing 30% of my income if you really want to be helpful.
- kbenson 8y ago
  Well, maybe if you stopped using the roads, or the airways, or the financial system, or doctors and hospitals, or anything else that is either funded by or functions efficiently and safely because of government regulations, it might be a fair deal. But since you can't live within a country without taking advantage of the benefits the government provides, such as rule of law and a living space that's relatively safe and has legal recourse for problems, good luck getting them to stop "stealing" from you. I guess you could move out to remote wilderness region, or some country with basically no government oversight. Somehow I doubt you'll be happier there, nor that you'll be able to make nearly as much money there as you would in a country with a strong government, even if none of the money us taxed at all. Taxes are the price we pay to support civilization, and as such it's an investment in our own current and future well-being, financial and otherwise. It's the implicit agreement you accept by continuing to live here. You can either lobby for a change, or attempt to move somewhere with different laws, but it's not theft, and acting like it is is willful ignorance of the reality we live in.
  - _red 8y ago
    None of those things are funded by Income Tax. Roads for instance are funded by gasoline taxes and other DoT levies. The income tax basically only funds: Interest on the debt, and Entitlement programs (welfare, etc).
    - mywittyname 8y ago
      Roads are federally funded from the general fund as well as from the insufficient gas tax. Entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are funded mostly through individual line items, and slightly through indirect means, such as interest paid to the programs by their bond holdings. Income taxes fund so much. You can't say it "funds only ..." because it funds almost everything. Sometimes directly, such as the military, but often times, it's indirect, such as college professors who receive grants from the NSF.
Waterluvian 8y ago
So if I'm middle class steal just a little, and am careful, I can probably get away with it?
Simulacra 8y ago
He had me until the Joe the plumber remark…

hueving 8y ago

Attempting to frame it as class warfare is a perfect way to lose support from a significant portion of the US population. "I'm Robin hood stealing from rich people" doesn't work for the people on the right who are more likely to complain more about the irs in the first place. Joe the plumber who runs his own plumbing business and doesn't pay taxes is going to get audited as well and he's (rightfully) going to lose despite his position in the middle class. This isn't "the bourgeois" stealing, it's anyone who deducts significant amounts of money, which is a broader/simpler message everyone can get behind. Every small business/individual contractor has the means to illegitimately write off tens of thousands of dollars.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
smileysteve 8y ago
> Every small business/individual contractor has the means to illegitimately write off tens of thousands of dollars. But I'll add that every small business/contractor has the right to write off a lot of things, or portions of things that they use for business.
SpikeDad 8y ago
It worked up to this newest incarnation of right wing politics. The IRS should go after the big cheese because a) they're more often stealing from us and b) the return vs cost of audit is maximized. What sort of "promoting" of IRS tax audits and fraud cases do you think should be done?
Ar-Curunir 8y ago
It literally is class warfare; what else should it be portrayed as?
- LanceH 8y ago
  The quote frames it as class warfare, then points out that 40% of Italy is evading taxes. So...40% of Italy is upper class? Sounds like something we should move to so we can have 40 times more people than the current 1%.
noobermin 8y ago
From who, those who do steal? What is tax fraud if it's not stealing? Why are crimes for some people not crimes while crimes for others punished so harshly? How is that not unfair already?
ionised 8y ago
> Attempting to frame it as class warfare is a perfect way to lose support from a significant portion of the US population. Why? That's exactly what it is.
emodendroket 8y ago
If you've ever listened to Trump or Palin or similar figures speak I'd have to say you would probably come to question this notion.

pastor_elm 8y ago

What people really don't understand is how much can be expensed by people who make a lot of money and structure their income as a business entity first. Meals, travel, vehicles, basically everything a regular person has to spend out of their own income to survive, these people get away with expensing as business expenses.

PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
The core problem is that businesses have to pay taxes on net while you and I have to pay taxes on gross. We need to equalize this. Either both should pay taxes on all money that goes through them (and have to change market prices accordingly) or people should only pay taxes on money they don't use in pursuit of living.
- refurb 8y ago
  You want a business who has revenue of $100M and expenses of $150M to pay taxes?
  - tyingq 8y ago
    Maybe. What portion of the expenses went to executive salaries in exchange for this stellar outcome?
    - wahern 8y ago
      Does it matter? Those salaries are taxed. Indeed, all expenses are taxed because every dollar of expense represents a taxable gain at some point in the supply chain.
  - PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
    If I have expenses that cost me $150K this year but I only make $100K I often have to pay taxes. Some expenses are deductible in certain cases, but even then it isn't equivalent. All I'm saying is that both should be treated equally, which ever option that ends up being.

PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago

>Don't kid yourself; these people are stealing from you. This seems like language specifically crafted to encourage an us vs. them view of taxation. Also, I notice the examples given are upper middle class/lower upper class, and not the top of top that evade the most taxes. Often legally, since there are so many massive tax loopholes that the richest get to legally avoid paying a share in proportion to the government goods and services they consume.

gamblor956 8y ago
True, but our budget already accounts for the super-wealthy using the loopholes. It doesn't account for the merely-very-wealthy committing outright tax fraud.
- PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
  The thing is, that difference between outright tax fraud and loopholes is having enough money to lobby and for lobbying to be worthwhile. On some level it feels like punishing the poor for trying to emulate the wealthy, and the merely very wealthy (an interesting way of putting it) like lawyers and doctors often fall into the poor when you break it down to those who are truly rich or not.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    No, the difference between outright tax fraud and loopholes is that one is knowingly against the rules and the other one is taking advantage of the rules. On some level it feels like punishing the poor for trying to emulate the wealthy, Let's get things straight: they're being punished for breaking the law, or more specifically, for fraud. The fact that they want to emulate the wealthy is irrelevant.
    - PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
      >breaking the law When the IRS is enforcing a corrupt law, it makes people who fear the corrupt law being enforced against them view the IRS as the bad guys. That it is the law only hurts the IRS's position in this. Until the IRS makes the truly wealthy pay their fair share, not their legal share, they will find themselves in a position lacking moral authority. Put another way, yes those loopholes are legal, but so is reducing the IRS's budget until they aren't able to operate at all.

furgooswft13 8y ago

> You are the middle class! I'm helping you! Oh yea? Stop stealing 30% of my income if you really want to be helpful.

kbenson 8y ago
Well, maybe if you stopped using the roads, or the airways, or the financial system, or doctors and hospitals, or anything else that is either funded by or functions efficiently and safely because of government regulations, it might be a fair deal. But since you can't live within a country without taking advantage of the benefits the government provides, such as rule of law and a living space that's relatively safe and has legal recourse for problems, good luck getting them to stop "stealing" from you. I guess you could move out to remote wilderness region, or some country with basically no government oversight. Somehow I doubt you'll be happier there, nor that you'll be able to make nearly as much money there as you would in a country with a strong government, even if none of the money us taxed at all. Taxes are the price we pay to support civilization, and as such it's an investment in our own current and future well-being, financial and otherwise. It's the implicit agreement you accept by continuing to live here. You can either lobby for a change, or attempt to move somewhere with different laws, but it's not theft, and acting like it is is willful ignorance of the reality we live in.
- _red 8y ago
  None of those things are funded by Income Tax. Roads for instance are funded by gasoline taxes and other DoT levies. The income tax basically only funds: Interest on the debt, and Entitlement programs (welfare, etc).
  - mywittyname 8y ago
    Roads are federally funded from the general fund as well as from the insufficient gas tax. Entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are funded mostly through individual line items, and slightly through indirect means, such as interest paid to the programs by their bond holdings. Income taxes fund so much. You can't say it "funds only ..." because it funds almost everything. Sometimes directly, such as the military, but often times, it's indirect, such as college professors who receive grants from the NSF.

Waterluvian 8y ago

So if I'm middle class steal just a little, and am careful, I can probably get away with it?

Simulacra 8y ago

He had me until the Joe the plumber remark…