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Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead: What if we have a "physical encryption" technology that allows encrypting physical objects so that X-ray sca

Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead: What if we have a "physical encryption" technology that allows encrypting physical objects so that X-ray scanners, drug detecting methods or metal detectors cannot see through them? Would customs be allowed to ask for the decryption key? Or should the customs just ignore whatever encrypted inside?

yholio 8y ago
There's no need to go to such wild hypotheticals if what you want to say is that you support border data searches - it's your right to have that political position. I simply have the opposite position. Given some hypothetical new technology with vast societal implications, I would be forced to carefully reconsider that position, but in this case I believe privacy is a basic human right that does not simply disappear at the borders.
- paradite 8y ago
  Of course I respect your opinions. I am just giving a thought experiment to introduce a different perspective and way of thinking. And I am more than happy to learn that you would re-consider your position given such hypothetical situation.
firethief 8y ago
Can we also download physical objects after we go through the checkpoint?
- paradite 8y ago
  You can already "download guns". http://time.com/5344265/3d-printed-guns-legal/ http://time.com/5344265/3d-printed-guns-legal/ I would be surprised if that's not possible for drugs or explosives in 5-10 years. Edit: Looks like they are already possible or at least on the way: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-manufacturing-your-own-drugs-thanks-3d-printing http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-man... https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-printed-hp-3d-printers/ https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-print...
  - slavak 8y ago
    You can "download" crappy, not very effective guns. And you still need to obtain the ammo (the actually lethal part) the old-fashioned way. I would very much be surprised if it becomes possible for drugs or explosives any time within my lifetime. Chemistry and physics just don't work that way.
    - paradite 8y ago
      I thought so too, but then I googled "3d print drugs" and "3d print explosives". I think google doesn't censor results based on location? So you should see the same results. Edit: To save your time and avoid polluting your search history: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-manufacturing-your-own-drugs-thanks-3d-printing http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-man... https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-printed-hp-3d-printers/ https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-print...
      - slavak 8y ago
        Thanks, that's quite interesting. Still, you do need very specific input materials for both processes. In the case of the latter, you basically need a spool of explosive string. You're not so much printing an explosive as you are shaping an explosive into a desired form. I'm sure it's still very useful, but I don't think it's a particularly big game changer in the "smuggling things into a country" field.
ehrtt 8y ago
Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead: What if we have a "brain encryption" technology that allows encrypting your brain so that brain scanners, thought detecting methods or emotion detectors cannot see through it? Would customs be allowed to ask for the decryption key? Or should the customs just ignore whatever is encrypted inside?
- paradite 8y ago
  Of course they should be allowed to do so. That would eradicate drug trafficking and cross-border terrorism. I would say the benefit is too good, weighing against privacy.
  - malnourish 8y ago
    It wouldn't stop those things though, there will always be a weak point. What it would do is erode the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens (something that terrorists seem to want). Furthermore, if you want to stop drug trafficking, legalize them.
    - paradite 8y ago
      > It wouldn't stop those things though, there will always be a weak point. If that is your argument, then I don't think anyone can convince you. > What it would do is erode the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens (something that terrorists seem to want). That's not how Wikipedia (and I myself) define terrorism: > Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.
      - malnourish 8y ago
        I can be convinced when the argument is good. I don't think a nebulous, "give up your privacy for some possible safety gains" is such an argument. I equate privacy with freedom, and I don't want to give up my freedom.
AsyncAwait 8y ago
Digital objects are different in that they usually contain your private memories, pictures etc. and it's entirely possible to reconstruct a complete network of your friends, family, history, affairs, trade secrets etc. from a single phone search. Physical objects usually don't reveal this much at once and require a warrant. With a border phone search, there's no due process at all. If you're so afraid of bad actors that you're willing to subject yourself to this, you're free, but the bad actors have won.
- gwright 8y ago
  So what happens if you move from country A to country B and bring all your personal papers, address books, photo albums, diaries, business records, etc. across the border (in a moving van, for example)? I really don't know but I suspect that no one takes the takes the time to read all those documents or to copy them for later study at least at most borders. I don't even know what the applicable law is for someone moving to/from US/Canada, for example. What happens if you use the postal service to deliver your phone across a border? Are the same authorities who claim the right to search your phone if it is on your person at the border also claiming the authority to confiscate and duplicate your phone if it shipped/mailed? Do you have to put your password on a sticky note on the the front of the phone? And if you ship the physical device but transfer the data separately does that change the expectations? It is interesting that condensing information into a digital format that can be easily duplicated and searched (before or after duplication) seems to change the expectations for the authorities and I think for individuals. I think this is another example of the modern digital world/economy has left the legal system in the dust.
8ytecoder 8y ago
Physically, there's constraint on what I am exposing. Digitally, it's my entire life. The bar for a search must be much higher to reflect that. Most people here are not used to dealing with a corrupt officer. Imagine a scenario where you own a property and the police officer next door desperately wants it and he finds a loop hole to block your access to the street (and does more horrible things to get you to vacate your house). Now imagine what he'll do if he had your phone and work backwards from there - even innocent things like a flirty message with someone can potentially ruin someone's life - it doesn't have to be illegal. The justice system and separation of powers acts as checks and balances from anyone (good or bad) being harassed unless there's a strong reason why. Get a warrant with a limited scope and then do the search.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Imagine... No need to imagine. There are innumerable cases over the years where cops have turned into stalkers backed by the power of the government when their girlfriends dump them. It happened to one of my ex-es, but I've seen it in newspapers dozens of times over the years. The problem is that cops are still people. And people are often messy, emotional, irregular, obsessive, mean, or just have a bad day and need someone to take it out on. Wetware will be wetware. All we can do is advocate for better training and smarter policies.
nmeofthestate 8y ago
You can't blow a hole in an aeroplane's fuselage with somebody's mobile browser history.
- gsnedders 8y ago
  Customs is way too late to be worrying about blowing a hole in an aeroplane, given you've already made it to the border by that point.
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago
    Good point but obviously the technology would still be a problem earlier in the process, and it would still be an equally bad analogy at that stage.
mikeash 8y ago
To make the analogy complete, it needs to include a global mail network that accepts these magic boxes and transports them almost instantaneously at almost no charge, so that you could trivially avoid any requirement to show customs what's inside by mailing your stuff to yourself after you get through.
wsy 8y ago
Your thought experiment raises a good point, but I think your conclusions are still wrong. The boundary between what should be allowed and what should not be allowed has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of technology. Freedom is not possible without privacy. As soon as you are in danger of privacy violation, you change your behavior. This is also known as self-censoring. You can already see it here in the forum: people report that they have nothing to hide, but they still reset their phones and use fake accounts when crossing the border. What is particularly insidious about border control is that there is no legal checks-and-balances system behind it. Police cannot search your home without a warrant issued by a judge. Border control can search everything without any warrant. In the past, you could yourself 'balance' this by not taking very personal things (e.g., a diary) with you when traveling abroad. But with our digital lifes, this is not possible anymore. You cannot leave your photo album at home anymore. What makes it so much worse is that criminals can so easily circumvent this issue. They anyway use throw-away phones. They don't need to carry notebooks with them, they can just buy a new one on arrival - if needed at all - and download encrypted files from the Cloud. So we now have established that border control has an unprecedented and uncontrolled access to our privacy. Shouldn't they be forced to prove that this pays off for our society? Please show me the cases of successful prosecution after digital search of a phone. To me, there seem extremely few of them. So it seems a high price for a marginal benefit.
nbluth 8y ago
I have a hypothetical question for you. Lets say we develop brain scanning tech. Should it be mandatory to perform a brain download to cross the border?

yholio 8y ago

There's no need to go to such wild hypotheticals if what you want to say is that you support border data searches - it's your right to have that political position. I simply have the opposite position. Given some hypothetical new technology with vast societal implications, I would be forced to carefully reconsider that position, but in this case I believe privacy is a basic human right that does not simply disappear at the borders.

paradite 8y ago
Of course I respect your opinions. I am just giving a thought experiment to introduce a different perspective and way of thinking. And I am more than happy to learn that you would re-consider your position given such hypothetical situation.

firethief 8y ago

Can we also download physical objects after we go through the checkpoint?

paradite 8y ago
You can already "download guns". http://time.com/5344265/3d-printed-guns-legal/ http://time.com/5344265/3d-printed-guns-legal/ I would be surprised if that's not possible for drugs or explosives in 5-10 years. Edit: Looks like they are already possible or at least on the way: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-manufacturing-your-own-drugs-thanks-3d-printing http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-man... https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-printed-hp-3d-printers/ https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-print...
- slavak 8y ago
  You can "download" crappy, not very effective guns. And you still need to obtain the ammo (the actually lethal part) the old-fashioned way. I would very much be surprised if it becomes possible for drugs or explosives any time within my lifetime. Chemistry and physics just don't work that way.
  - paradite 8y ago
    I thought so too, but then I googled "3d print drugs" and "3d print explosives". I think google doesn't censor results based on location? So you should see the same results. Edit: To save your time and avoid polluting your search history: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-manufacturing-your-own-drugs-thanks-3d-printing http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-man... https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-printed-hp-3d-printers/ https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-print...
    - slavak 8y ago
      Thanks, that's quite interesting. Still, you do need very specific input materials for both processes. In the case of the latter, you basically need a spool of explosive string. You're not so much printing an explosive as you are shaping an explosive into a desired form. I'm sure it's still very useful, but I don't think it's a particularly big game changer in the "smuggling things into a country" field.

ehrtt 8y ago

Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead: What if we have a "brain encryption" technology that allows encrypting your brain so that brain scanners, thought detecting methods or emotion detectors cannot see through it? Would customs be allowed to ask for the decryption key? Or should the customs just ignore whatever is encrypted inside?

paradite 8y ago
Of course they should be allowed to do so. That would eradicate drug trafficking and cross-border terrorism. I would say the benefit is too good, weighing against privacy.
- malnourish 8y ago
  It wouldn't stop those things though, there will always be a weak point. What it would do is erode the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens (something that terrorists seem to want). Furthermore, if you want to stop drug trafficking, legalize them.
  - paradite 8y ago
    > It wouldn't stop those things though, there will always be a weak point. If that is your argument, then I don't think anyone can convince you. > What it would do is erode the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens (something that terrorists seem to want). That's not how Wikipedia (and I myself) define terrorism: > Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.
    - malnourish 8y ago
      I can be convinced when the argument is good. I don't think a nebulous, "give up your privacy for some possible safety gains" is such an argument. I equate privacy with freedom, and I don't want to give up my freedom.

AsyncAwait 8y ago

Digital objects are different in that they usually contain your private memories, pictures etc. and it's entirely possible to reconstruct a complete network of your friends, family, history, affairs, trade secrets etc. from a single phone search. Physical objects usually don't reveal this much at once and require a warrant. With a border phone search, there's no due process at all. If you're so afraid of bad actors that you're willing to subject yourself to this, you're free, but the bad actors have won.

gwright 8y ago
So what happens if you move from country A to country B and bring all your personal papers, address books, photo albums, diaries, business records, etc. across the border (in a moving van, for example)? I really don't know but I suspect that no one takes the takes the time to read all those documents or to copy them for later study at least at most borders. I don't even know what the applicable law is for someone moving to/from US/Canada, for example. What happens if you use the postal service to deliver your phone across a border? Are the same authorities who claim the right to search your phone if it is on your person at the border also claiming the authority to confiscate and duplicate your phone if it shipped/mailed? Do you have to put your password on a sticky note on the the front of the phone? And if you ship the physical device but transfer the data separately does that change the expectations? It is interesting that condensing information into a digital format that can be easily duplicated and searched (before or after duplication) seems to change the expectations for the authorities and I think for individuals. I think this is another example of the modern digital world/economy has left the legal system in the dust.

8ytecoder 8y ago

Physically, there's constraint on what I am exposing. Digitally, it's my entire life. The bar for a search must be much higher to reflect that. Most people here are not used to dealing with a corrupt officer. Imagine a scenario where you own a property and the police officer next door desperately wants it and he finds a loop hole to block your access to the street (and does more horrible things to get you to vacate your house). Now imagine what he'll do if he had your phone and work backwards from there - even innocent things like a flirty message with someone can potentially ruin someone's life - it doesn't have to be illegal. The justice system and separation of powers acts as checks and balances from anyone (good or bad) being harassed unless there's a strong reason why. Get a warrant with a limited scope and then do the search.

reaperducer 8y ago
Imagine... No need to imagine. There are innumerable cases over the years where cops have turned into stalkers backed by the power of the government when their girlfriends dump them. It happened to one of my ex-es, but I've seen it in newspapers dozens of times over the years. The problem is that cops are still people. And people are often messy, emotional, irregular, obsessive, mean, or just have a bad day and need someone to take it out on. Wetware will be wetware. All we can do is advocate for better training and smarter policies.

nmeofthestate 8y ago

You can't blow a hole in an aeroplane's fuselage with somebody's mobile browser history.

gsnedders 8y ago
Customs is way too late to be worrying about blowing a hole in an aeroplane, given you've already made it to the border by that point.
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  Good point but obviously the technology would still be a problem earlier in the process, and it would still be an equally bad analogy at that stage.

mikeash 8y ago

To make the analogy complete, it needs to include a global mail network that accepts these magic boxes and transports them almost instantaneously at almost no charge, so that you could trivially avoid any requirement to show customs what's inside by mailing your stuff to yourself after you get through.

wsy 8y ago

Your thought experiment raises a good point, but I think your conclusions are still wrong. The boundary between what should be allowed and what should not be allowed has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of technology. Freedom is not possible without privacy. As soon as you are in danger of privacy violation, you change your behavior. This is also known as self-censoring. You can already see it here in the forum: people report that they have nothing to hide, but they still reset their phones and use fake accounts when crossing the border. What is particularly insidious about border control is that there is no legal checks-and-balances system behind it. Police cannot search your home without a warrant issued by a judge. Border control can search everything without any warrant. In the past, you could yourself 'balance' this by not taking very personal things (e.g., a diary) with you when traveling abroad. But with our digital lifes, this is not possible anymore. You cannot leave your photo album at home anymore. What makes it so much worse is that criminals can so easily circumvent this issue. They anyway use throw-away phones. They don't need to carry notebooks with them, they can just buy a new one on arrival - if needed at all - and download encrypted files from the Cloud. So we now have established that border control has an unprecedented and uncontrolled access to our privacy. Shouldn't they be forced to prove that this pays off for our society? Please show me the cases of successful prosecution after digital search of a phone. To me, there seem extremely few of them. So it seems a high price for a marginal benefit.

nbluth 8y ago

I have a hypothetical question for you. Lets say we develop brain scanning tech. Should it be mandatory to perform a brain download to cross the border?