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I'm by no means an expert, so I'll definitely bear with you. But your hypothesis more or less matches mine. I do think you underestimate the amount of sexism me

I'm by no means an expert, so I'll definitely bear with you. But your hypothesis more or less matches mine. I do think you underestimate the amount of sexism men experience in nursing and child-education. Now my problem is that gender ratio is the key metric we seem to be using to measure sexism in STEM fields, and I don't think any policy is going to fix that. We can try and mitigate cultural expectations, but if those cultural expectations are grounded on intrinsic interests, we're going to have a very hard time getting rid of them. I think you really need to examine your idea that "men bear most of the responsibility". Men always bear most of the responsibility, and that's one of the oldest stereotypes. Men are generally considered to be more responsible for their own actions then women are. I think it's why they get longer prison sentences for the same crime. If you're not an object, you're a subject. So why do you think men bear most of the responsibility, aside from historical precedent? Are men best situated to fix these problems? I will note that a lot of new programmers are indian or asian men, which implies to me that tech is pretty good as far as racial discrimination goes. It certainly seems like a welcoming environment for those visable minorities. Or at least more welcoming then most of the alternatives.

aklemm 8y ago
Besides the history and baggage of patriarchy, men bear the responsibility because women still run into double standards of behavior (not allowed to be angry, critical, etc.), inequity of where they can comfortably hang out, and men are more likely to objectify women because of sex interests. Now those are just tendencies and many men do a great job working against them, but they are a massive part of a woman's experience in the workplace and I think men checking other men is the highest priority. This story is illustrative, I think, and helps me think about women out in the world. My wife went into a bar in DC recently which at that moment was entirely men (imagine 20-30 middle aged male, DC professionals socializing, and they might have been colleagues), so when she ordered a drink, she took it outside. Outside there were two more woman and a tatted up male. What do you think would have happened if she had sat at an empty booth inside? What if she were me, and I'd sat at an empty booth inside? I think she would either been ignored OR one of those men would have seen her presence as an invitation. They would not view my presence as any sort of invitation. Small, fun example, I think, of the work men need to do.
- tomp 8y ago
  What do you think is wrong with approaching a woman in a bar? After all, it's not a professional space, and she can always leave (as she did) or say "no thank you". Personally, I don't think there's anything men should change in this situation (as long as they're being respectful and non-annoying). If you went to a gay bar, I imagine the effect would be the same (nothing wrong with that either). Also, thanks (both of you) for an interesting thread!

aklemm 8y ago

Besides the history and baggage of patriarchy, men bear the responsibility because women still run into double standards of behavior (not allowed to be angry, critical, etc.), inequity of where they can comfortably hang out, and men are more likely to objectify women because of sex interests. Now those are just tendencies and many men do a great job working against them, but they are a massive part of a woman's experience in the workplace and I think men checking other men is the highest priority. This story is illustrative, I think, and helps me think about women out in the world. My wife went into a bar in DC recently which at that moment was entirely men (imagine 20-30 middle aged male, DC professionals socializing, and they might have been colleagues), so when she ordered a drink, she took it outside. Outside there were two more woman and a tatted up male. What do you think would have happened if she had sat at an empty booth inside? What if she were me, and I'd sat at an empty booth inside? I think she would either been ignored OR one of those men would have seen her presence as an invitation. They would not view my presence as any sort of invitation. Small, fun example, I think, of the work men need to do.

tomp 8y ago
What do you think is wrong with approaching a woman in a bar? After all, it's not a professional space, and she can always leave (as she did) or say "no thank you". Personally, I don't think there's anything men should change in this situation (as long as they're being respectful and non-annoying). If you went to a gay bar, I imagine the effect would be the same (nothing wrong with that either). Also, thanks (both of you) for an interesting thread!