4 ms·

I wish I could be pleased. Summary: - they are offering a 1 um process - process specs contains very little information and a scary number of "(??)" - test w

I wish I could be pleased. Summary: - they are offering a 1 um process - process specs contains very little information and a scary number of "(??)" - test wafer specs are at https://github.com/chipforge/PearlRiver https://github.com/chipforge/PearlRiver - classically they have built (or will build?) a ring oscillator - no results published for test wafer measurements - again NO test data published - fab is a space at Hong Kong University of Technology - university fabs are often run on terrible equipment and by (to put it generously) trainees - every time the university trainee operator changes you're probably qualifying a new process on your design (yes this is a bit snarky) Based on my experiences getting stuff out of a university fab "process"... I'd rather sign the lot of NDAs and pay the money. Wait time might be faster out of a production fab, and you can usually bank on the process being followed.

baybal2 8y ago
In their defence, the sole fact that they actually managed to get started is already a miracle. Whatever they present now, is not even "stage 1" of what it is to become once they will get any much substantial cash flow. Their long term goal is to get to 180nm, or with a stretch to 130nm. How they will get there without an actual fab, you may ask? The amazing thing is the fabs are actually there: HK has a number of abandoned fabs built up to nineties technology level. They were once built by no name electronics companies in nineties, but they all went bust during the Asian crisis. And HK never managed to emerge as a player in semiconductors. HK government is facing a dilemma, they have to do something with them, but bulldozing a FAB, even a nineties era one, is not an option. And here the Chipforge comes.
- zokier 8y ago
  I don't have any knowledge, but wouldn't running an ancient full-scale commercial fab academically/for small volumes be very uneconomical even if they got the fab itself for free.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Even 600nm is commercially viable for specialty applications, 300nm for low-end general purpose, and their aim is 180nm. So there is nothing about the process itself that disqualifies it.
    - namibj 8y ago
      Heck, with immersion lito you can even use DLP chip(s) with 405nm and then-trivial multi-patterning to the 180nm... likely even close to 130nm, but that's a stretch that might be too hard on the compensation. This sort of node, with no minimum order quantity and pricing within 2~5x of mask-based fab (slightly slower steppers at these scales, but 600nm might be still reachable in 2 minutes on a 12" for the exposure if you use some resonance or so to get sawtooth-motion of the head to e.g. compensate for a spinning wafer (think like a record/CD player unless viewed in slow motion). Resonance is surprisingly easy to keep steady-state with just a piezo and maybe another one if needed that provides all high frequency content that's not handled by the fundamental and 2 or 3 low harmonics of the scan frequency. There are applications thanks to modern automation as far as hard-wired logic instead of a via mask ROM, and this should be able to eat much of the low-end FPGA business due to even just much higher design flexibility.
- aeontech 8y ago
  > HK has a number of abandoned fabs built up to nineties technology level. They were once built by no name electronics companies in nineties, but they all went bust during the Asian crisis. This is __absolutely__ the most cyberpunk thing I've read all year. Truly, we live in the future. A question arises - how much work would it actually be to bring up a fab that's been dead for several (much less a dozen) years? Wouldn't the fab basically need to be ripped apart and completely refurbished by now? Or are the most important pieces fairly immune to physical degradation when abandoned without regular ongoing maintenance?
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Quite a lot, but still incomparable to doing it from scratch. FAB require very unique equipment, not used in any other industry. Like water filtration plants that can make ultra pure deionised water in tenths of cubic metres per hour, process gas recycling plants, industry specific automation equipment, etc Even a nineties tech level, a FAB still costs a megaton of money. The most unique proposition here is that a prospect of getting an actual FAB with a lot of automation, and not a laboratory coaxed into manufacturing role is within the grasp. You can't have that anywhere else in the world.
moftz 8y ago
Going through a company like MOSIS is the best bet for university research. You get access to modern processes and reduced cost by sharing a wafer. Running your own out of date fab is dumb and expensive. One of the cheapest processes they have is ON Semi 0.5um. That is the one my school offered for free to students taking a CMOS layout class for undergrads. After the final project was turned in, the professor would off anyone with a working design the chance to get their layout made. You'd have to write a report on how well the run went (for MOSIS, the school didn't care since this was well after the semester was over).
- baybal2 8y ago
  Yep, you are right. But the point of this enterprise is not RnD or anything, and "doing the dumb, expensive thing" with hope of making it being less so, is the very raison d'etre for the Chipforge

baybal2 8y ago

In their defence, the sole fact that they actually managed to get started is already a miracle. Whatever they present now, is not even "stage 1" of what it is to become once they will get any much substantial cash flow. Their long term goal is to get to 180nm, or with a stretch to 130nm. How they will get there without an actual fab, you may ask? The amazing thing is the fabs are actually there: HK has a number of abandoned fabs built up to nineties technology level. They were once built by no name electronics companies in nineties, but they all went bust during the Asian crisis. And HK never managed to emerge as a player in semiconductors. HK government is facing a dilemma, they have to do something with them, but bulldozing a FAB, even a nineties era one, is not an option. And here the Chipforge comes.

zokier 8y ago
I don't have any knowledge, but wouldn't running an ancient full-scale commercial fab academically/for small volumes be very uneconomical even if they got the fab itself for free.
- baybal2 8y ago
  Even 600nm is commercially viable for specialty applications, 300nm for low-end general purpose, and their aim is 180nm. So there is nothing about the process itself that disqualifies it.
  - namibj 8y ago
    Heck, with immersion lito you can even use DLP chip(s) with 405nm and then-trivial multi-patterning to the 180nm... likely even close to 130nm, but that's a stretch that might be too hard on the compensation. This sort of node, with no minimum order quantity and pricing within 2~5x of mask-based fab (slightly slower steppers at these scales, but 600nm might be still reachable in 2 minutes on a 12" for the exposure if you use some resonance or so to get sawtooth-motion of the head to e.g. compensate for a spinning wafer (think like a record/CD player unless viewed in slow motion). Resonance is surprisingly easy to keep steady-state with just a piezo and maybe another one if needed that provides all high frequency content that's not handled by the fundamental and 2 or 3 low harmonics of the scan frequency. There are applications thanks to modern automation as far as hard-wired logic instead of a via mask ROM, and this should be able to eat much of the low-end FPGA business due to even just much higher design flexibility.
aeontech 8y ago
> HK has a number of abandoned fabs built up to nineties technology level. They were once built by no name electronics companies in nineties, but they all went bust during the Asian crisis. This is __absolutely__ the most cyberpunk thing I've read all year. Truly, we live in the future. A question arises - how much work would it actually be to bring up a fab that's been dead for several (much less a dozen) years? Wouldn't the fab basically need to be ripped apart and completely refurbished by now? Or are the most important pieces fairly immune to physical degradation when abandoned without regular ongoing maintenance?
- baybal2 8y ago
  Quite a lot, but still incomparable to doing it from scratch. FAB require very unique equipment, not used in any other industry. Like water filtration plants that can make ultra pure deionised water in tenths of cubic metres per hour, process gas recycling plants, industry specific automation equipment, etc Even a nineties tech level, a FAB still costs a megaton of money. The most unique proposition here is that a prospect of getting an actual FAB with a lot of automation, and not a laboratory coaxed into manufacturing role is within the grasp. You can't have that anywhere else in the world.

moftz 8y ago

Going through a company like MOSIS is the best bet for university research. You get access to modern processes and reduced cost by sharing a wafer. Running your own out of date fab is dumb and expensive. One of the cheapest processes they have is ON Semi 0.5um. That is the one my school offered for free to students taking a CMOS layout class for undergrads. After the final project was turned in, the professor would off anyone with a working design the chance to get their layout made. You'd have to write a report on how well the run went (for MOSIS, the school didn't care since this was well after the semester was over).

baybal2 8y ago
Yep, you are right. But the point of this enterprise is not RnD or anything, and "doing the dumb, expensive thing" with hope of making it being less so, is the very raison d'etre for the Chipforge