4 ms·

> My hypothesis is that Asians are better at math/science than whites. If that's sarcasm, presumably you think that Asians aren't better at math/science than w

by tomp 8y ago

> My hypothesis is that Asians are better at math/science than whites. If that's sarcasm, presumably you think that Asians aren't better at math/science than whites. Assuming that's true, you should conclude that there are cultural factors contributing to the imbalance. So do you support measures that would discriminate against Asians (i.e. pro-white affirmative action) to correct for this "structural" imbalance?

rayiner 8y ago
If whites were the subject of longstanding past discrimination, then sure, and I'd support such measures. I think it's irrational to assume that you can remedy past discrimination without affirmative action. It's like bending a paperclip and assuming that it'll return to its original shape so long as you leave it alone.
- tomp 8y ago
  Hm... it worked quite well (much better than science and engineering anyhow) in medicine, law, biology, arts, ... http://www.linehollis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/84bendincontext.png http://www.linehollis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/84bendi...
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Both medical schools and law schools made affirmative efforts to get enrollment to be near 50-50, then the new ratio ended up being self-sustaining.
    - traverseda 8y ago
      That's very interesting, can you provide a source for that?
      - rayiner 8y ago
        In the 1970s, there were a spate of class-action lawsuits that lead to court-supervised changes in firm hiring practices, and in some cases express quotas: https://biglawbusiness.com/decades-old-gender-bias-case-marked-turning-point-in-big-law; https://biglawbusiness.com/decades-old-gender-bias-case-mark... https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/08/archives/top-law-firm-bans-sex-discrimination-sullivan-cromwell-will-pursue.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/08/archives/top-law-firm-ban.... At least as long as I can recall, the express goal of the ABA, etc., has been proportional representation and equal compensation, not merely some abstract commitment to "gender blindness." See ABA recommendations: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/women/closing_the_gap.authcheckdam.pdf https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/w.... Statistics are tracked and some firms have made express commitments: http://fortune.com/2017/08/30/the-mansfield-rule-lawyers-diversity; http://fortune.com/2017/08/30/the-mansfield-rule-lawyers-div... https://www.law.com/dailyreportonline/2018/06/07/eversheds-sutherland-says-30-percent-of-equity-partners-to-be-women-by-2021 https://www.law.com/dailyreportonline/2018/06/07/eversheds-s....
    - harryh 8y ago
      I've also wondered if the more formalized path of career progression in medicine and law has made it easier to reform the fields for better inclusiveness.
- repolfx 8y ago
  That's not irrational at all. Why would the decisions of people 50 years ago have any impact on my hiring decisions today? You will rapidly end up arguing about subconscious bias and other things you can't prove. The idea that innocent people today should suffer for supposed crimes of their ancestors is called 'corruption of blood' and it's explicitly forbidden by the US Constitution as well as most notions of human rights.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    That's an almost Wesley Snipesian con-law argument, militating as it does against taxation, which, after all, is in large part a visitation of the debts of parents and even grandparents on their children and grandparents.
    - repolfx 8y ago
      What a straw man. "Men should not be punished for the perceived crimes of their ancestors" is not in any way an argument against the general concept of taxation. But if it helps you ignore the argument, feel free to write it off as "we must discriminate against men because if we didn't, we'd find ourselves getting rid of tax".
      - tptacek 8y ago
        What is the difference between market interventions that correct imbalances due to past prejudices and forcible appropriation of resources from later generations to repay the debts of former generations?
        repolfx 8y ago
        You seem to be starting from the assumption that the former is obvious and proven, and the latter is OK. Both assumptions seem wrong to me. 1) I don't believe gender imbalances today are due to past prejudices in past eras. Many other people don't either. There's overwhelming evidence that gender disparities have other explanations. 2) Well run governments don't rack up huge debts. The ones that are doing, like the USA, need more fiscally conservative governments to get it under control, although nobody in America seems to care much about the deficit or getting it under control. This is not true of every country however.

by tomp 8y ago

rayiner 8y ago

If whites were the subject of longstanding past discrimination, then sure, and I'd support such measures. I think it's irrational to assume that you can remedy past discrimination without affirmative action. It's like bending a paperclip and assuming that it'll return to its original shape so long as you leave it alone.

tomp 8y ago
Hm... it worked quite well (much better than science and engineering anyhow) in medicine, law, biology, arts, ... http://www.linehollis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/84bendincontext.png http://www.linehollis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/84bendi...
- rayiner 8y ago
  Both medical schools and law schools made affirmative efforts to get enrollment to be near 50-50, then the new ratio ended up being self-sustaining.
  - traverseda 8y ago
    That's very interesting, can you provide a source for that?
    - rayiner 8y ago
      In the 1970s, there were a spate of class-action lawsuits that lead to court-supervised changes in firm hiring practices, and in some cases express quotas: https://biglawbusiness.com/decades-old-gender-bias-case-marked-turning-point-in-big-law; https://biglawbusiness.com/decades-old-gender-bias-case-mark... https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/08/archives/top-law-firm-bans-sex-discrimination-sullivan-cromwell-will-pursue.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/08/archives/top-law-firm-ban.... At least as long as I can recall, the express goal of the ABA, etc., has been proportional representation and equal compensation, not merely some abstract commitment to "gender blindness." See ABA recommendations: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/women/closing_the_gap.authcheckdam.pdf https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/w.... Statistics are tracked and some firms have made express commitments: http://fortune.com/2017/08/30/the-mansfield-rule-lawyers-diversity; http://fortune.com/2017/08/30/the-mansfield-rule-lawyers-div... https://www.law.com/dailyreportonline/2018/06/07/eversheds-sutherland-says-30-percent-of-equity-partners-to-be-women-by-2021 https://www.law.com/dailyreportonline/2018/06/07/eversheds-s....
  - harryh 8y ago
    I've also wondered if the more formalized path of career progression in medicine and law has made it easier to reform the fields for better inclusiveness.
repolfx 8y ago
That's not irrational at all. Why would the decisions of people 50 years ago have any impact on my hiring decisions today? You will rapidly end up arguing about subconscious bias and other things you can't prove. The idea that innocent people today should suffer for supposed crimes of their ancestors is called 'corruption of blood' and it's explicitly forbidden by the US Constitution as well as most notions of human rights.
- tptacek 8y ago
  That's an almost Wesley Snipesian con-law argument, militating as it does against taxation, which, after all, is in large part a visitation of the debts of parents and even grandparents on their children and grandparents.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    What a straw man. "Men should not be punished for the perceived crimes of their ancestors" is not in any way an argument against the general concept of taxation. But if it helps you ignore the argument, feel free to write it off as "we must discriminate against men because if we didn't, we'd find ourselves getting rid of tax".
    - tptacek 8y ago
      What is the difference between market interventions that correct imbalances due to past prejudices and forcible appropriation of resources from later generations to repay the debts of former generations?
      - repolfx 8y ago
        You seem to be starting from the assumption that the former is obvious and proven, and the latter is OK. Both assumptions seem wrong to me. 1) I don't believe gender imbalances today are due to past prejudices in past eras. Many other people don't either. There's overwhelming evidence that gender disparities have other explanations. 2) Well run governments don't rack up huge debts. The ones that are doing, like the USA, need more fiscally conservative governments to get it under control, although nobody in America seems to care much about the deficit or getting it under control. This is not true of every country however.